I’ll Be There is an incredible motion picture about a family at a critical turning point in their lives that recently screened at the Austin Film Festival, and it also took home the award for Best Texas Independent Feature at the festival. And in order to properly celebrate the film’s brilliance, we sat down with Cindy McCreery, the writer of the film, and its director, Andrew Shea, to learn about its assembly.
 
John Betancourt: Cindy, what was it that inspired you to write this feature?
 
Cindy McCreery: It was inspired by my brother, who had gone through bladder cancer surgery. And it was at the time when Michael Jackson died. So, his body was being autopsied next door at the USC Norris Cancer Hospital. And over that time period, I, you know, ended up being there quite a bit with him because they didn't live in LA, I lived in LA, but my family did not. So, it was really inspired by that real experience. And then it kind of took a life of its own after, you know, after I wrote the script and several versions of it. And we did a stage reading. But that's really where it came from is from that real experience.
 
John Betancourt: Now Andrew for you, what motivated you to come onto this project as its director?
 
Andrew Shea: Well, I, at the time, in roughly February, March 2018, I was wrapping up my documentary project, it was the third documentary I had made since 2012. And I was eager to take on another, fiction film, fiction is my background, first in theater. And then in in filmmaking, I had made three narrative films in the late 90s, early 2000s. So, I was looking for a new narrative project. And Cindy, and I, you know, we're colleagues, we see each other all the time at UT. And I asked her if she had any interesting independent projects in a drawer somewhere that you know, that she might have stashed away that we're looking for further development and possible production. And she sent me this script, and I was just very drawn to it right from the outset, I felt it was very raw and real, emotionally compelling. I was very drawn to all the family themes, and I found the end without saying too much to give away. But you know, I found the end, really beautiful and surprising and compelling. So, you know, I jumped on board since Cindy was open to collaborating with me.
 
John Betancourt: Something I genuinely appreciated about this film, was that it shows American families as they actually are, and I was curious, for Cindy, what motivated you to showcase families… properly on screen?
 
Cindy McCreery: Well, I, again, drawing from my own experience, I come from a blended family. I'm the youngest of six kids, and we have you know, my parents have been married a long time, but they were married to other people before and they have kids with, you know, so, that was really what inspired the story in the first place is, you know, what makes a family and also the complications when you're a kid trying to understand, you know, that dynamic of, you know, your siblings maybe have a different father and they go on Thanksgiving after, you know, breakfast, they go spend Thanksgiving afternoon with their other family. And, you know, I think a lot of us can relate to that. And so, it was an opportunity, the more I worked on the script to explore those things. You know, at first it was kind of more thinking just about oh, like being a caregiver, and the sort of oddness of having the celebrity issue going on around me, but then it really evolved more into like, being a blended family and what does that mean and what do families look like and sibling relationships from that point of view.
 
John Betancourt: And to dive further in these family themes, Andrew you mentioned that the family dynamic was a big draw for you. What specifically about that dynamic really resonated with you?
 
Andrew Shea: Well, the central relationship, I mean, as a director, I'm mainly interested in relationships, and the central relationship between the siblings, and all of its backstory, all of the ups and downs, the estrangement between them, all the sort of… and I was just, I found it very real and very compelling. And, you know, in the end there, there's, there's a sense of coming together there that I, you know, found very emotional, I was also drawn to the flashback structure that Cindy had, had developed in the early draft. And I really, I, as a director, I was challenged and intrigued by how to structure that in a way, knowing that it was likely going to be a low budget film, with such a large cast, and sets of siblings, five different siblings, both younger and older versions of them, I just thought was, was a great logistical and creative challenge. And, and I love the era, I love the 80s era. I found that very appealing. Yeah, and I love the 90s era. I mean, it's really a period piece, you know, it's the main, the present day is 2009. But all those sibling flashbacks are set between 1983 and 1988. And I found all of that very, very compelling.
 
John Betancourt: I think what you each have put together here is a very, very poignant film about American Family Life. What does it mean each of you to have assembled a film that is going to properly represent America?
 
Andrew Shea: But honestly, I don't think I think of it as a very particular family, and, you know, a unique family that we have tried to breathe life into with, you know, the incredible aid of our amazing cast who really are responsible for breathing all that life into it. And, and I like to think, as you're saying that the themes are more universal, and that people from all walks of life in this country can relate, you know, we all come from families, whether we all come from large, blended families or not we all come from families and all families have problems and all families have love. And you know, this is a story that touches on those sort of universal themes. So, I am hopeful that people find something personal that they can relate to, in the story. But I didn't set about trying to make a film about an archetypal American family, it was always very narrowly focused on the trials, tribulations, and joys of this one very particular set of siblings and their extended family.
 
Cindy McCreery: Um, well, it's funny, I again, I didn't, you know, I just kind of set out to just write about my experience. And you know, because of the blended part is so personal to me. You know, it just that was really the family I know, and understand, you know, my husband's family, they're not blended. They don't, you know, they're full siblings, you know, parents, same parents, and they have complications, too. I think growing up, sometimes when I'm explaining my family tree, it could get confusing. And then, you know, the older I get, the more I realize, like, this is pretty normal. Most people I know. I mean, the divorce rate’s pretty high in our country. So, it's not that unusual to have that. So, I'm excited for people to hopefully connect that way and appreciate, you know, like you don't, what makes a family. I mean, families are defined in so many ways these days. I mean, you have your founded family, you know, people create their own families that are outside of the family they grew up with, and so hopefully they can just see that you know, that, that love, and connection is the most important thing, especially when you're facing death or a very scary time. When you realize what's really important, and you know, some of those dynamics that you had when you're kids, you know to kind of let go of some of that stuff and kind of appreciate the love that you do have.
 
John Betancourt: What did each of you love the most about working on this project?
 
Cindy McCreery: I mean, it was, for me, I've written a lot of films and TV, as a professional, but haven't had a lot made. So, I've sold a lot of projects, um, you know, or I write, and then I'm just kind of like, “Okay, bye. We'll see you later.” And so, for me, I loved I just loved being involved from every aspect from the casting, every part of the creative process. And it was fun with Andrew, because Andrew was very open with me, you know, we talked through so many things. And so, it was a really fun process. And I loved, you know, producing the film, and thinking about, you know, everything from costumes to like, what do we want to look like, and to be a part of that, was really exciting. And I love doing something that was different, you know, for I think this story is a little different, you know, we have a little bit of magical element in there a little bit. And I love that, you know, my partners in the film with Andrew and Melissa, and Barb and the other producers were just so open to exploring this world and evolving it. And I really appreciate it, that part of it. So creatively was very exciting for me and fulfilling.
 
Andrew Shea: Yeah, I mean, I would echo the things Cindy said, it was a very positive collaborative experience with Cindy, first of all, but also with your other producers, the editor, and my fellow producers, also my wife, Melissa, she and I've had a 30 year long, creative collaboration as well as a 25 year-long marriage. So, and my daughter is in the film and was my assistant, and also was the choreographer of the film. You know, and this for me was, it represented an opportunity to kind of bring together a lot of elements of my, not just my family life, but my professional life, my career, which it started in theater, and this is very, and then my work in narrative, and my teaching, but even my documentary work over the last 15 years, very much affected, I think my approach to making this film. All the film was shot entirely handheld. And that's probably not a choice I would have made before I'd made my documentaries. And, you know, I teach working with actors. That's, that's what I was hired to do when I was brought to the University of Texas 20 years ago, but it was time for me to get behind the camera again, in a narrative film, and really test, not just what I knew before I was brought to UT but to test a lot of the ideas that I've been preaching and teaching over the last 20 years, and we were blessed with a really remarkable cast. And for me, that was what I was most excited about going to set every day was working with Jasmine and Ryan and Dory and Vicky and Celestina, and the rest of the kid actors in the cast. So, it really for me, brought together so many personal and professional threads of the last 30-40 years of my career. A very, very satisfying experience.
 
John Betancourt: Now we’ve definitely talked about some powerful concepts and topics today, and well… to perhaps break away from that for a moment, and considering the film’s hook, I’d be foolish to not ask each of you, what your favorite Michael Jackson song is.
 
Andrew Shea: I'll jump in there, you know and this this may sound self-serving given the title of the film but I, you know, given where my era in the late 60s early 70s, I love “I'll Be There” and I'll go with you know with the Jackson Five with “I'll Be There” right from you know, pre MJ and his incredible run as a solo artist.
 
Cindy McCreery: I really love “The Way You Make Me Feel”. It's a good one. Yeah, I'm definitely more of the older, from the Thriller and his first albums.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for both you today. What are each of you most proud of when it comes to work on this project?
 
Cindy McCreery: Oh, well, gosh, I'm just really proud of the way it came together. I mean, it, it really was, I was thinking about this morning, just like such a labor of love. I mean, we just all, the actors, were so committed, our crew, I mean, Andrew and Barb, and Melissa and our other producers and investors. I mean, like it, it was really, I'm just, just really, it's kind of overwhelming how it took such a village to make a movie. I mean, it's kind of a miracle any movie gets made, really, when you think about all the elements that go together. And I think you know, I'm just really proud of how it turned out. I think it's really beautiful. I think Melissa and Andrew did a really beautiful job. In the edit. I mean, it, it changed, it just changed every day, from the time I wrote it to through production, and I’m just really, really proud of it. And it's, you know, it is so personal for me. So, I feel very proud of the film and excited and I think it's moving. And it was just really a positive experience overall. So, I'm excited for people to see it.
 
Andrew Shea: I mean, similarly, you know, the, the overall collaboration with all of the creative partners starting with the cast, of course, but also, you know, Juliana, the costume designer, Cindy, as the screenwriter and fellow producer and sort of my partner in this from the very outset, it's been, you know, as Cindy said, a real labor of love for, for a large group of people, and I am very proud of the collective spirit and commitment to the project, that so many people shared and, you know, the set was exhausting. And, you know, it was it was over 100 degrees every single day of production. But people really kept a great spirit about it, I thought, and I really do credit the cast, you know, for, I think we were really fortunate to land such wonderful actors in the principal roles, and they just bring so much heart and craft, and depth and sense of humor to, to the story, really bringing it to life. And, and if I had to single out one element that I'm most proud of, probably it would be the performances, and that's maybe the most important piece. But there's so many other elements that Cindy and I also mentioned that, you know, really brought all that together. I didn't mention Stephen Trask, the incredible composer, you know, so many key collaborators contributed so much.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

For When You Get Lost is a powerful coming-of-middle-age story that recently screened at the Austin Film Festival and took home the Comedy Vanguard Feature Award. And to properly celebrate the film’s brilliance, we sat down the Cast and Crew of the film; Jennifer Sorensen (Writer/Star), Michelle Steffes (Director), Aja Bair (Mikey), Cat Hammons (Joann), and Brian Thomas Smith (Jack) to discuss what brought these fine individuals together to make such a powerful film.
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John Betancourt: So, Jennifer, what inspired you to write this film?
 
Jennifer Sorenson: Um, so I actually took this road trip, I didn't do it with my sisters. But I did this road trip right before my dad died. In a similar experience that I decided I wanted to go up there. I didn't tell him I was driving, I got up to San Francisco and told them I was flying in, and he told me not to come until three days later. So, I ended up on this road trip by myself. And as I was on the road trip, it was so cinematic, and I was already a writer at the time. And I was like, this will be an amazing movie, one day. I kind of was taking pictures and doing all this stuff. And, and so then when I got up there, and you know, as you've seen the movie, things happened. And so, when I got home, I just… it took a couple years, but I started to sort of piece it together. And there are many iterations of the script. It eventually, it was too close to home the first time I wrote it. So, I actually ended up fabricating the trip with the sisters and adding them in as part of a journey for June. So yeah, that's what inspired it sort of a very similar situation. But I, I ended up fictionalizing what actually happened,
 
John Betancourt: Now for everyone else, what inspired you to join the project?
 
Michele Steffes:I loved the way that Jennifer's voice came through. So clearly, I feel like her sense of humor, which has a little bit of a biting edge to it, and her big heart really came through in in the character of June and then the whole journey, right from the first sequence. I knew that this was going to be something special. And then it just kept getting better as I read it. I wanted to do it by the time I finished the script.
 
Cat Hammons: Oh, I just think I love the journey. The idea of you know, as you get older, you just turn into so many different people, you are not the person you are when you were young. For me personally, I don't know that person, I'd probably call the police on that person. And so, it really is one of those things where how do you apologize for a time in life when you didn't even know what right was from wrong, or you didn't have a life definition? And so, I love the idea that you know, then you have someone walk into that life when you've changed, when you've learned some stuff, and still have to deal with the wreckage that happened when they were young. And I just love that, I love the idea of being the mom and stepmom to these people who are trying to take care of a past I have nothing to do with.
 
Aja Blair: Um, yeah, I mean, I feel like right when I read it, I was like, just super… I don't know, I obviously don't have Jen’s voice… but I feel like reading it was just like really inspiring. And I thought it was so funny and I obviously thought Mikey was super funny. And yeah, I feel like Cat played so well. But I just… every time I laughed, I was like, “Oh, I want to do this. This is so funny.” And like, even and like being a part of it. I ended up like jumping into writing myself. Like I was just so inspired by the whole process. So yeah, I definitely would just say, I just really liked the dark comedy aspect, like how Michelle was saying she has like a bite to it, like this stuff that goes a little too far.
 
Brian Thomas Smith: You know, so I just worked on a show with Liz (Elizabeth Alderfer, who plays Cami), and she sent me a text and said, “Hey, I'm working on this movie. There's a great part would you be interested?” So already just knowing Liz, I'm halfway in the door and then I read the script. And I think I put the script down after my line was… “Did you just try to kill yourself in a low admissions vehicle?” And yeah, that sold me, I wanted to play the part. But yeah, no, I read the script. And it's so cool and like, so strange because it's very close. And similar to my… my wife's real life. Sisters, dad, trauma childhood, it's just like, oh my gosh, I gotta do this. And it's just a great script. So very happy to get on board.
 
John Betancourt: Now there are just… so many layers to this film, especially when it comes to its thoughts on mental health and self-care, and I would love to know what it means each of you now to be a part of a movie that is kind of at the forefront of all the discussions about mental health and self-care at the moment.
 
Jennifer Sorenson: Um, I mean, to me, it's not a new thing. I feel like it's something that's now just… it's okay to talk about it. But thank you for saying that, first of all, that I feel like, you know, we're always told as writers, to write what you know. So, like I said, to me, it's not a new thing. But certainly, for someone. Again, this isn't my family, but my dad did struggle with a lot of anxiety. And like looking back, it's, you know, anxiety and depression are hand in hand. And the way he dealt with it in real life, and in the film, was that he smoked pot every day. And that was the way that he was able to sort of self-medicate. And sorry, this is it's this is our first interview. So, I'm getting used to this. And talking about real things, and not real things. But yeah, I, I feel like it was a great healing journey for myself to sort of write about this and to have another layer of forgiveness. For someone like my dad, who, like Cat said, had a whole other life before me, before any other children came along. And so, yeah, it's just, it's just writing what you know, and kind of having the catharsis to go through it.
 
Michelle Steffes: I think Jen and I worked a lot on the on the script’s development, and then went through some, you know, some drafts as we were in prep, and then even going back through and post and looking at dialogue. And one of the focuses that we had, was really being clear in our own hearts about what we felt about what we were saying about the mental health. And something that I think was important to us was that we were not being prescriptive, we were not prescribing a solution for someone else. But rather, describing what one family has done to deal with trauma in their lives. So, every character in the script deals with trauma in their own way. And they have their own coping mechanisms. And I think that one of the things that we wanted to do was not necessarily to pass judgment on those different coping mechanisms, or say that one is valid, and one is not. For example, Cami has drawn really strict boundaries around herself, and decides to let down at least one of those boundaries at the end to come back to June. And she's choosing that as a choice that she feels is best for herself at that time. And then June has had different ways of coping and distracting and decides that she needs to take personal responsibility for her past and her current situation. So, I think that we, it's something that we thought about a lot, because we knew that it was going to resonate with people who have had any kind of traumatic background, whether it's in the family or not. So, it's something that we want to be really careful about, and I'm hoping that it's received in that spirit.
 
Brian Thomas Smith: Um, yeah, I think I mean, like I said, like, my, my wife has such a similar story to this, and the mental health issues of the… just having a father who caused some trauma in life to the whole family. And so, I just, I just thought that you know, it's so cool to be a part of this film that talks about it. And it's just such a close personal subject to me now in my life, so it was just cool to be a part of this film. It's, it was just like, I think there's a lot of people that are gonna be able relate to it. So, that's cool.
 
Aja Blair: Oh, gosh, I mean, I don't feel like I… I think maybe this film made me start thinking about it. I don't like I come from a family that really talks about it at all. We definitely like glaze over things. So, I think it kind of made me look at my life and like, I can relate like a tad bit to like some of the trauma, but I think for me, it was just more of like, “Oh, wow, maybe I should take a step back and like think about it and look at look at it.” Which is actually kind of funny, because like, I don't really have relationship with my dad, but he's actually coming this weekend. So, like, that's something that I've been thinking about in the last few weeks. So, yeah. But yeah, we don't talk about mental health. So, this movie kind of made me start thinking about it a little bit.
 
Cat Hammons: Well, I think for me, this whole idea of mental health, just kind of dovetails with forgiveness, and the fact that we do things in the past, we have things done in the past. And I think in the world today, there's this tendency to either try and justify what happened in the past in the sense that, “Oh, it was meant to happen. And it brought me to this point, and blah, blah, blah,” and you try and soften it. And sometimes it just can't be soft. And sometimes you have to forgive it as it is. It was a series of jerk moves, I didn't like it, I did not become a better person as a result of that. I became a better person in the sense of despite that. And I think I guess in the world today, when it comes to mental health, and when it comes to forgiveness, these two things, there's such an awareness of the need for mental health. And yet, there's so little patience for mistakes in the past. And so, I just really love that idea of forgiveness is hard work, because sometimes it just has to be what it is, there is no movie ending. Sometimes someone just acted badly. And you know, all the reasons they acted badly, and you recognize the circumstances to acting badly. And you still recognize that they had a choice to make, and they made the choice that caused the most harm. And yet you can still find a place in your heart to forgive because life is life. You know what I mean? And so, people do the best that they can at any given moment, and you can still love them and recognize that they were being a bad person in that moment.
 
Jennifer Sorenson: To add to that. I think too what I hope that the film portrays is that a humanizes mental health that like I think in the end, at least, my personal journey and what I tried to express with June's journey was that she finally saw her dad as a human being. That he was just a man. And he made mistakes, but he was a human being. And just like all the all the characters in the in the movie are flawed. They've all made mistakes. And so, I hope it humanizes the mental health.
 
Cat Hammons: Oh, to also add to this. The other thing that was so great about is that it just offers kind of the, I guess you could say just the working-class, middle-class view of mental health. I mean, we have the extremes of mental health, which we see. But there are just so many people who are struggling with so many things, and they just are living their lives, they still have to go to work every day, they're raising their families. And yet, you know, there is something that is happening within them. I think that's what I love so much about the movie is that this is what a person has to do to win. It would be great to get therapy, but either I don't have the time I don't have the money, or I don't recognize myself that I might need it. And so, I love the working class, just average person every day aspect of how mental health appears in a family's life.
 
John Betancourt: Now, we’ve definitely talked about some heavy topics today, and rightfully so. But on a more positive note, I cannot help but notice how much joy and passion I’m hearing in all of your voices, and I have to ask what each of you enjoy the most about working on this project?
 
Cat Hammons: Oh gosh, being able to drive up from Seattle to where we shot in Washington. It was gorgeous. It was wonderful. I felt like such a big deal actress. I'm like, “Oh, look at me. I got a car and I'm driving. I'm something special.” And the first night, when I got there, we had a little crab dinner. They were crabs, right? And I loved it because I loved getting to know everyone. And I also realized I just can't fight with my food. If I have to dig like that. I'm not the one. And so, it was delicious. But by the end, it was like the crab had me it wrestled me down and it hid its treats where I couldn't find them. So, it was good to know for me. (Laughter from everyone)
 
Aja Blair: All the ladies, all the women that are part of the film, I probably talked about it so much. And the people in my life are probably so annoyed. But I feel like it was just almost like culture shock how many women had a hand in this project. And I think it was just like, it was just really exciting for me to like, go out every day and like work with all of them. And I feel like I learned so much like as an actor and just as a human being. So yeah, I feel like just, you know, just… just the women. That's my answer.
 
Brian Thomas Smith: Well, I came in for a one-day pinch hit. And so, I got like one at bat and I wanted to take more swings, because it was just such a fun group. atmosphere to be around. I worked the very last day of the whole shoot. So, they had all this history and all this camaraderie. And I was just like, wow, what a special project to just walk into, and I could tell everybody was so grateful to be like, we made the movie. It's done. Oh, my gosh. And then there was a little wrap gathering. So, I got to meet some other players. But it felt cool to, to walk in at the very end there and be a part of something so special, and then to see the movie and be like, “Wow, this was even better and cooler than I thought it was going to be.” So, it was a great, great experience. I never would have known that until you mentioned that now, because it seems so seamless. So that's really incredible.
 
Michelle Steffes:  Well, I'm gonna echo. You know what everyone else said. Because those were all like things that I love. Like, it was so fun having Brian come out. And last day, like our very last shot at the whole movie was Brian on his bike, like Boo Boo Bobby, like talking to the neighbors and stuff. And I also love the beautiful locations. The road trip was such was so much fun. And I also loved all the women. I loved how many women we had, like kind of powering this film. And I'm gonna say to say one different. I think that working with a writer slash producer slash actor who is telling a fictional story that draws from a lot of true-life inspiration, including some of the exact same places where real things happened, could have been a really difficult experience. Because you're trying to stay true to someone's not only like, something that they've imagined, which is what you're always trying to do with a writer's work. But something that in some, in some moments they've experienced. It's, it's so challenging. And I think that it would have been really easy for Jennifer to have been sort of a difficult person to work with. And I thought that she was amazing. I thought that she juggled so many things, so many different aspects of her heart, and her life, were like kind of flashing before her eyes, and her willingness to look at what was really best for the script. And not to stay stuck on things that are just the way that she had it necessarily, or to pull real pain into her performance, or her willingness to be flexible and to support everyone else. Even though she had so much on her shoulders during every day of the shoot because it was her script, it was her character and it was her making sure that there were seats for us to sit when we needed to eat you know, she was she was like wearing so many hats and I think I would have to say that working with her and seeing the beautiful way that she pulled all those things off was my favorite part.
 
Jennifer Sorenson: I don't know how to top that. I'm going to try not to make a joke of what she said because that's my instinct, is to like make a joke about how I you know would bitch about putting on my makeup. But um, so, this script is an eight-year journey, but my dad died in 2013. So, this has been percolating in my head for ten-years. So to choose a favorite moment is like impossible. I will say we call this the magical movie because there's no way that this could have ever gotten made. I still don't understand. I wake up in a flop sweat sometimes wondering how the hell we made this because I can't believe that I got all these people to listen to me and do these things. I'll give… I'll give a favorite moment. The first read through I had of this script. I think it was in 2015 or 2016, it was terrible 200 pages there were two Junes. It was really bad. It was a bad script. But Michelle's husband was there, Joey Aucoin. I went to college with him. And he must have heard something that he liked because he came home and he told Michelle, how much he liked the script. And I got a random text from Michelle just saying, because she's also a fellow writer saying, I heard your table read went well, and I just want to congratulate you. And we weren't really friends. But she, you know, she had messaged me, and just because we didn't know each other that well, anyways. And so, when a series of events happened, where different directors weren't able to do this project, I always had it in the back of my mind that Michelle sent me this really nice, nice text seven years ago. And out of nowhere, I was like, “I should ask Michelle,” and our producers Meredith Riley Stewart and Alethea Root, knew Michelle, and they're like, “Okay, well, let's call Michelle.” And I just knew, I kind of knew the moment she sent me the message if I'm really honest, that she was going to direct this film. And it just it's one of those things that is magical about this film. I feel like a lot of things just went by gut and not by logic, because if you knew how we made this movie, and they all do, it was not by logic, no, no logical person would do what we did. So, I would just say like, that was sort of like one of the magic little pings that I got at a very early stage in this that I kind of just knew certain things. And Michelle was one of those things. And thank God that she texted me and thank God that she was the director because she definitely elevated this project, way more than I could have ever done. We worked very closely on it. And I too, am very grateful for the relationship that we had. And it could have been a nightmare, you know?
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for each of you today, what are you each most proud of when it comes to this project?
 
Jennifer Sorenson: I would say again, I don't know how we did it. But I'm actually proud of… I watch it sometimes. And I don't know, as an actor how I did this, because I do know what I was doing on the day. And I don't see myself and I watch it and I wonder in a little bit of a worried way of like, “am I a little crazy?” Because I don't know how I did some of the stuff that I did. And I've seen, I was in the editing room. And so, I it's not like, I know that we edited together a performance, I've seen a lot of things. And there's some bad stuff. I'm not saying that. But I am I'm proud of my performance, especially given the amount of… I was rewriting things at the time as the writer, I was finding seats for people I was doing, you know, all these other things. And I also then was able to make a one take phone call and was memorizing it in a different scene with Aja, ten minutes before, because that's the other dirty little secret. And Cat will tell you that I don't know my lines. But when you're the writer, you think that you know your lines, but you don't because you've rewritten them for seven years. So, you don't know your lines, but you certainly will correct the other person in your scene, that they are saying the wrong lines, while you don’t know yours. Is that true? Ladies? I did do that. That's my very long answer. Thank you. (Laughter from all.)
 
Michelle Steffes: We had a producer watch that recently, who called it a tonal high wire act. And I think that's what I'm proud of the most is the is the blend of tones. That there's like a black humor in the various scenes. And there is something that is like… there's a lot of joy, and love, which could come out like overly sweet. And there is a… there's a real sad emotion to it. You know, it's very serious in parts. And all like all of the actors here have scenes that exemplify that, you know, Brian had mentioned his line about like, “did you just try to kill yourself in a low emissions vehicle?” That was such a… I love that line. I love it in the movie. He's just this like, he's very authentic saying that line, you know, like, he doesn't… he's not being funny in the moment. He's being sincere. And there's something so hilarious about his performance in that whole scene because he's being sincere, but he's just so flabbergasted by her behavior. And then like, you know, Aja has the scene in the hospital. I don't want to you know, get into spoilers but like, there's a really, one of my favorite, like jokes in the movie is Aja's reaction to something really dark that that Jennifer says in the hospital, you know, and Cat has lines about like smothering people. You know, needing to practice smothering people because their husband snored and like that, like got a huge laugh at our last screening. And I think that I'm really proud of the way that the that the tone, that the different tones blend together in the movie, it's probably, to be totally honest, not going to work for every single viewer, but I think that it was what we meant to make.
 
Cat Hammons: I think I'm most proud of the fact that there's a very businesslike way of approaching when someone's in the hospital. And that, you know, you're trying to balance that with your own emotions. And if you're a mom, or a parent of any kind, and you have kids, regardless of their age, you're trying to help them move through what is ultimately going to end a certain way. And so, balancing that business aspect of it, whereas the nurse says this, the doctor says this, this has been, these are the things that need to happen. And I think you're on the verge of losing your father. And so, I guess that's what I'm most proud of is catching that… the both sides of that, the business as well as the empathy and the love.
 
Aja Blair: Oh, man, um, I feel like, I'm just proud that I was able to sit through the screening and watch myself in a movie, let's be real. I mean, I'm just like, it was just like a really cool process to like, read it 500 times, and then work on it, and then finally see it. And, man, I just like, I'm just like, so happy that I like got to like to stand next to Jen and Liz. And just like, it's so cool that like, I tell everyone about this film, and that I got to be their younger sister and like, so just seeing it, like, as a whole and like seeing that, like those sincere moments that Michelle was talking about, like how, like, no one is trying to be funny. Like, we're just being ourselves and like, the moment and how it like comes together so beautifully.
 
Brian Thomas Smith: First of all, I'm just super proud to be in the movie. I mean, it's such a good movie, and I've done other movies where I don't tell friends to see the movie. So, I think that's why I'm telling everyone that you have to see this movie, it's so good. It's so good. I'm so proud to be in the movie. You know, I am proud that I was able to step in on short notice and I get to set the tone for the very beginning of the movie. And I you know, I read my scenes and, and got the gist and I showed up and you know, and I felt like the movie starts off in a great spot and takes you on a really cool ride. And I'm very proud of the movie.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Jeff Dixon, Jim Cooper, and Leo Riley are a trio of accomplished creatives in Hollywood, that have worked in writer’s room, as producers and Leo also works as a director. Currently, they’ve teamed up to bring Curses! on Apple TV+ to life, and we here at NTG were lucky enough to sit down to discuss this important show with them.
 
John Betancourt: What brought this project to life?
 
Jim Cooper: Okay, well, basically, so Jeff and I were not always a writing team, together, we kind of had totally separate careers, Jeff, mostly in horror. I'm mostly in like family animation, that kind of stuff. And our kids are going to school together. And so, we’d drop the kids off at school and walk back and just kind of talk shop and we’d end up standing on the street corner for like an hour. Just talking about stuff. And we're always like, “Oh, it'd be really great to combine horror and family and animation. What can we do and idea wise?” And a lot of it started with, was talking about my family curse, which my dad died when I was younger. He had his, he had his brother, and his brothers-in-law all die at a relatively young age. And so, it became a joke amongst the family that it was our family curse. And my cousin was literally going through my grandpa's photo album, and, and found this photo. So that's my grandfather holding the skull. Like, okay, there we go. It's… whose skull is it? Well, that's how we solve the curse! (Laughs) Anyway, Jeff and I were actually talking about that. What if you did have a family curse, how would you get rid of it? And so it kind of grew from there were just logically then we built from that.
 
Jeff Dixon: Honestly, I will say this, this might even lend a little bit more into how the tone kind of ended up. But it's kind of like what (Jim) Cooper talked about, which is, we both kind of came from two different worlds. And mine is definitely more of the darker horror world, his was a lot more of a funny comedy world. And, you know, anytime that one of us would go too much in one direction, we would pull the other back. So, it was like I would always, you know, try to push more horror, and he'd be like, “Dude, you can't do that.” He tried to like, pitch some jokes that were just too zany. And I'd be like, “No, no zany rule.” And we would like, end up kind of in the middle. And I mean, just for me as a as a personal thing. Really, it was finding that sort of gateway horror, scary material for kids that is really not on the market right now. Stuff that we grew up with, that were actually scary. Um, you look at some of the like, originally PG rated movies like Poltergeist and Gremlins. And I mean, that's like legit scary stuff. And they just don't do that anymore. And so, we were always like, “you know, we need something for our kids at the time that we had, that really wasn't available at the time.” So that became a real touchstone for us.
 
John Betancourt: Now, Leo, what was it that excited you about getting to work on this project?
 
Leo Riley: Well, the fact that it was a gateway horror, there's not a lot of content in that space. At least at that point, there's definitely been a big surge of that type of content starting to happen now. So, I guess I'm always looking for different kinds of projects to engage in, you know, having kind of worked from in comedy, all the way even in preschool all the way through action, et cetera. So, I'm always looking for something new to engage with and in, you know, a horror show. Absolutely. I’m in.
 
John Betancourt: Digging a little deeper into the show’s elements of horror, I'm very curious why each of you think it's so important than that. We have a little bit of that horror spice in in kids programming at this point in time.
 
Jeff Dixon: Well, I always relate to like how I was a kid watching horror. And the reason I kind of got into horror, was… I'm not the kid… never was, and I’m still not the person who is just watching a horror movie and sitting back in their chair, just like (Monotone) “Don't go in that door. Boo. So scary.” Like, I freak out all the time. Like I still like something scary. I'm just like, you know, kind of doing this (Pretends to Hide) and I'm like, that's how I am now. And when I was a kid, I did it because I saw it as a way to challenge myself. And I would be like, “You know what, this is a dare, this is terrifying, but I'm going to do it.” And then when it was done and the credits would roll, I had this like super kind of like proud feeling where I'm like, I achieved something, you know what I mean? It was like this is like God over the spirit. And in a weird way, it can kind of translate to real fears and overcoming real fears. And I know that sounds like such a deep kind of psychological thing. But there's a lot of psychology to fear that people just don't talk about, they think about “Oh, horror is just, you know, schlocky, whatever.” But there's a lot of like, they always say, like, during times of struggle, that horror viewing actually goes up, because they say that it takes people's mind away from the real horror. And it shows how you can actually deal with the real horrors. And so, when it comes to kids, a lot of times people are afraid to do something scary for kids, but it's actually really psychologically healthy for them to see something scary in a safe space and feel like they can overcome it at the end. And we just didn't feel like that was out there right then. So, we wanted to do that.
 
Jim Cooper: You know, because it's funny, I've always, I've always loved things that are hybrids, like, horror/comedy, is a great example. Because when something is just one thing, it's, it's too predictable. You know, where you go, “Okay, this, here's the formula, here you go.” And I think particularly like, with, with young people, too, it's learning about all the different things that are possible, you know, all the different flavors that are out there versus just, this is what a family show is, I mean, think about, like, the great literature, and the younger kids throughout the years, and there's a huge, a wide variety of stuff. And so, if they think, “I'm into science fiction,” they can seek out the gateway science fiction, and there are gateway horror stories, and comedies, and very rarely do I find it interesting. If they are just one thing.
 
John Betancourt: Now, another thing that I noticed, too, is that the show has a phenomenal visual flare to it. Leo, why is a specific visual style so important to a show like this?
 
Leo Riley: Ah, I would say, I mean, let me just speak to the roots of where it comes from. And I would say, it's, you know, early on the, the art director, David Chung, and I just, were kicking the idea back and forth quite a bit and trying to figure out like a visual trigger that immediately tells you kind of what space you're sort of working in, being, you know, like some sort of a horror space, and I think that came from referencing E.C. comics. You know that kind of brushwork style. Yeah. Vault of Horror, all of those comic books, that immediately gives us some kind of grounding in the space. And also, it's just kind of interesting to look at, you know, we're always trying to do something new and that engages us. So yeah, I think it coming from that inspiration. And being something that, you know, we hadn't kind of done before, I think it's, it's important, we always want to do new stuff and push things where we can.
 
John Betancourt: There are a lot of great messages to find in this story, what do you each hope is the top message the audience takes away from this show?
 
Jeff Dixon: As far as the messaging goes, I mean, it's one of the things that we always talked about, you know, we talked about the Indiana Jones and reverse aspect, and how you know, you know, you're not going out and get these artifacts or bringing them in, but the other aspect that we always talked about was a line that Indiana Jones always said, which is “that belongs in a museum,” and how that line feels so dated now, because while yeah, some things do belong in a museum, it's really more important to find out where the thing is actually from and where it actually should belong. And so, it's like, finding out actually, the original owners, what sort of scenarios it went through to, and whose hands it went through to get to a certain space and finding out the meanings of it from one culture to another. And it's like, finding out that sort of, I mean, everybody can say a different types of thing. You can say, repatriation, you can say all this stuff, but it's really just finding out about where a certain aspect of whether it's an artifact or an aspect of culture came from and actually learning about that aspect and culture and finding out the, you know, what you should be knowing about it.
 
Jim Cooper: So, what I would say is, you know, it's a family problem that the family is dealing with. And what I really like is that the family is dealing with it, together. It's not the kids just go off on their adventure, or the parents solve it all. I mean, we made a real point in like, episode two, you know, Skye trying to protect the kids from what's happening, and then the kids having to go, “it's gonna happen to us, whether we like it or not, we have to be part of this.” And she has to learn to give them enough freedom to join in. And I like that they're doing it as a team. And some episodes, some people are stronger than others. So that it's a group effort. And it's not just “kids will save the day” or “listen to your parents,” that it's sometimes you're going to have different skills and strengths. And sometimes you have to rely on someone else. But that's the core part about being a family.
 
Leo Riley: Well, I mean, I hope that people take away some thoughtful storytelling, some scares, and that, even though, yeah, it has some pretty intense moments that at the end, the ride, roller coaster ends.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for each of you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to this series?
 
Leo Riley: Ah, I'm most proud of, you know, working with a really strong, thoughtful crew. You know, everybody was really committed to the project. I think that's, that's the biggest thing. I'm always really you know, knowing that these projects are kind of a culmination of a lot of people's efforts, I think it's just really, that's what I'm probably most proud of, is that we all came together and helped Jeff and Jim, you know, make a show that, that we're all proud to be part of.
 
Jim Cooper: Well, it kind of goes hand in hand with what Leo was saying. I'm actually really proud that we did a lot of stories that you really wouldn't normally see on television, in kids’ television, or adult television or anything like, and that we're dealing with aspects of thought and culture that you don't normally see. But I also love that everyone on the crew, watching the show, I can point to key things and go “So and So came up with that, that that was the insight of So and So.” And it actually was nice people like on the crew going, “Oh, this is an aspect. I can infuse in the show.” So that it's somewhat unusual, in that it's, it's unusual. And it's part of all of us.
 
Jeff Dixon: I mean, I will not continue, but I absolutely agree with the crew aspect. And we really did have such a magical crew, and everybody handled it, it's just like, you can't even not say that aspect. But one of the things just from a personal point of view that I am really proud of is the fact that we had a pretty early rule in the writer’s room that we weren't going to ever talk down to kids. Where like this may be a show that is… we're not making a show for kids. We're making a show for everyone that is accessible to kids. And so, we always wanted to say that you know what? Kids are a lot smarter and understand a lot more than people give them credit for. And so, whether it is in the storytelling, where it's like, you know what, they can follow a complex story over the course of a season or whether it's the scare where it's like, oh, you know what, this is a scary moment, but they can handle it. Oh, or whether, you know, we never, we never acted as if we had to treat kids with white cotton gloves that we respected kids enough that they could follow along with complex storytelling and some actual scares. So, I think I'm most proud of that.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Kevin Duncan Wong is an accomplished documentarian whose current project, Home is a Hotel, explores a unique aspect of American life. And we here at NTG were lucky enough to sit down with Kevin to discuss all aspects of his new feature.
​
John Betancourt: So, let’s talk a little bit about what inspired you to tell this story.
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: Yeah, totally. Um, so you know, the film is set in San Francisco. Which is where I live. And I had done a short documentary about a woman and her daughter living in an SRO, a residential hotel room, in Chinatown, with one of the producers, co-directors on the film, Todd, he had a friend, Todd and I were part of a filmmaking cooperative in San Francisco. And he had a friend that worked in the Mayor's Office of Housing at the time. She's a consulting producer on the film, Sasha Hauswald, and she came to him and said, “You know, I think somebody should do something about the situation in these buildings, with the direction that the prices of housing are going in San Francisco, it’s getting really tough for folks, and someone should do a documentary about it.” And so that was around like, 2014-15, I think. And that was kind of like in San Francisco, it was kind of this turning point where it felt like we were coming out of the 2008 recession. And then things were kind of starting to turn from like, “Yay, the economy's coming back,” to like, “Okay, things are getting a little crazy, like what's going on?” And so, the idea of like, thinking about, like, everyone could, could relate to how difficult it was to like to afford a place to live in San Francisco, and the larger Bay area, but the idea of like, looking at it from what's the smallest possible place you could have, was sort of interesting, very visual. And so, we made that short, and just kind of like, shot it over for weekends, like over a couple of months, four weekends. And kind of put it together didn't really think anything of it. Like literally, like the only budget was like lunch for our crew, and like licensing some music. So, it was like $1,000. And so, we just made it and put it out. And then, much to our surprise, it started to get into a bunch of festivals and started winning awards, and then it ended up getting distributed by PBS.
 
And so, we were like, “Okay, there's some, like, there's an audience for this, it's sort of interesting.” And then at the same time, during that period of, making that film, my grandfather actually passed away. And the last sort of like year of his life, we had a woman who was coming to help take care of him, you know, like, as people need when they get older. And at the screening of the short film, we used to call that woman “San Yi”, which means like, “distant aunt’ in Chinese. And so, after one of the screenings we had in San Francisco, that my aunt, my, my dad's sister, my aunt came to, after the screening of the film short, she came up to me and said, “You know, San Yi lives in an SRO.” And I had no idea. And it's like this woman who had been a part of my family for a whole year, I had no idea she lived like this. And so that, plus the making of the short, we sort of like understood that there's this whole sort of like, group of people that really sort of like make the city run, make the city what it is, that, you know, don't make a lot of money.
 
And so, things are tough for them. And so, wanting to sort of like, shine a light on that. And then also understanding that, you know, the, this short we did was just about a new immigrant from China and her daughter that we're living in an SRO. And that's an important experience for people to know about. But it's not the only experience that is represented by people who live in residential hotels. And so, you know, we really wanted to zoom out and tell a more sort of kaleidoscopic, or sort of, like more complete picture of who lives in this kind of housing in San Francisco. And in particular, because, you know, these buildings have bad reputations, and we want to sort of like interrogate, like, some people's thought, is just tear all the buildings down, and you'll get rid of the problem. And we sort of felt like the answer was a little bit more nuanced than that.
 
John Betancourt: So, this is an ambitious documentary because it really is timely and relatable. Plus, this is a story that really does showcase some raw moments, and I’m quite curious, because this could not have been an easy shoot, what kind of challenges did you run into in telling such intimate stories?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: This was definitely not an easy film to make. I think, initially, the first challenge, was just getting people to talk to us. This, we started the feature version of this project, in 2016. And so, as you can imagine, with the election that year, a lot of people in these buildings like maybe don't have, like legal status in United States, some folks are trans, some folks are like, fleeing something or other from another place where, you know, they're sort of like targets in various ways. And so, you know, us sort of like walking around knocking on doors, like some a couple of strangers, like nobody wants to talk to us. But fortunately, the community group that we had worked with in Chinatown to make this short, was really happy with how the film came out. And I think in particular, they appreciated that we didn't dwell on the more salacious aspects of living in residential hotels, we really were trying to, you know, celebrate the resilience and the tenacity of, and like how much effort the folks that are living there, are putting into trying to improve their situation. And so, they made some introductions on our behalf to other community groups and other neighborhoods. And that made a big, big difference, because once we, once we started talking to them, they started to introduce us to people that they knew, and that was, you know, a much easier way to build rapport.
 
And so, from there, we had, I think we had a spreadsheet of about, like, 15 people, I think we were considering following. And for various reasons, either their life circumstance or we sort of made the call that we didn't think that they were quite a right fit for the film, we sort of narrowed it down to the five people that we follow. And then from there, we kind of just started shooting. And, you know, the other piece, you know, this is an observational verité film, right. So that means we're not sitting people down and asking them to answer questions and sort of like, tell what happened in the past, we're trying to film things as they happen. And so that's always a very risky kind of film to undertake. And then I think, particularly because we didn't have a film that fit, it's sort of interesting, we're at the Austin Film Festival, which is like, also a Writer’s Conference, right. And there's this movement in documentary to fit the story that you're telling into the classic three act structure, right, you follow a hero, and you follow their journey, like on this three-act structure. And, and that's not really the film that we were trying to make, right. And so, there was some additional hesitancy, because if you have, if you have a film where you're just following one person, right, you can kind of imagine like, okay, like, they're gonna go on this journey. And like, I understand who this one character is that I'm following. But, you know, we're kind of really trying to paint a broader portrait of a city or a community, and people couldn't really sort of like wrap their heads around that. And so, in the early stages, it was very, very difficult to fundraise.
 
And so, we were just, we got a couple of small grants from some local arts organizations. And then I got into a fellowship from an organization there, its national program, but they're based out of San Francisco called the Bay Area Video Coalition. I got into their fellowship, and that really was the thing that sort of like kept me going even as we weren't having a lot of success initially, fundraising. Then once we sort of started to have some footage, and I think having some footage and having shot for like, I think, two years or so, the project started to come together for people a little bit more. And then sort of like, we sort of slowly built momentum there in terms of being able to raise additional funds, started to get more grants and things like that, sort of like culminating in us receiving support from Sundance and a couple other big funders. As we were entering post.
 
John Betancourt: Now you mentioned objectivity there, and really just documenting the moment. That could not have been easy. So how did you keep it objective, especially with such raw humanity in front of you?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think a few things, right. So, like, I'm sort of one of those people that may be a little bit cringes when I hear people talk about objectivity, because I think it's sort of an abstract ideal, a lot of the time. And so, I think what the best you can do, is being honest about your perspective. And so that was what we were trying to do with the film. And so, I feel like the film is very much like from my, and my team's perspective, like, this is what we saw, and we heard, and we recorded it, right, that's kind of what the film was trying to do. And so like, acknowledging that, that's the limited view that it has, right. But then also, it's a very, like, intimate, and like up close and personal view also. So, it's much more detailed than you might get in like a two-minute segment on the nightly news, right. And so like, that's the value and it may be sort of, like limited in sort of like, it’s field of vision, but it's very up close.
 
And so just sort of like always leaning on that. And then I think the other thing that I really wanted with the film is, besides sort of, like, bringing these stories out, that people don't know about, I also really wanted it to feel like we wanted it to be something that got people to disengage from their intellect, and engage with their emotions and their experiences, we wanted them to like, experience what it's like to be in San Francisco, in this moment. And then like, from the point of view of someone who's living in a room, and so like, with those kind of two, you know, load stars, I think that is really what helped us make the decisions to help the film have the feeling that it's sort of like objective or sort of like, as if you were seeing it for yourself.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, you know, this is something very important to you, has meant a lot to you. As a filmmaker, how, how do you process the gravity of what you see through so much footage, I mean, obviously, this is the finished product, you said yourself it took two years of shooting for this.
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: It was it was two years of shooting before we started to get money. Five years of shooting total.
 
John Betancourt. I apologize, my mistake, five years of shooting. That’s a lot and that's a lot of very raw, intimate moments. Some very heartbreaking I'm sure, some very uplifting. Because there was a lot of catharsis and seeing some of those escape get away from SROs and get into a house and a second chance. But you personally, how did you process this?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: Yeah, I mean… I just did, I just did the best that I could. It's funny, a friend of mine, who's been doing this a little bit longer than I have has kind of been on a little bit of a soapbox about normalizing including therapy in documentary budgets. And after, after this after this project. I definitely agree with her. But, you know, it's sort of like back to the objectivity question, I think the only thing you can really do is just like, embrace your humanity in the process, embrace your empathy, like, I just had, I had to interact with these people as a human being and with empathy. And so as hard as it may have been to bear witness to some of their struggles. I feel like I could always take solace that I, like I was always doing what I felt like was the right thing in the moment. And also, that, like, you know, we were on that journey together. And like, part of why they let us in is because they wanted other people to know that there are literally thousands of people that go through the same thing. And so that, I think, you know, for all the moments when it was hard, that's what kept me going. And that's what kept us from giving up, you know, because there was definitely a point where I was like, “Why am I doing this? Why, why am I putting myself through this? What is this all for? Is this even going to make a difference? Like, I should just give up this? This is going to be terrible, anyways.” You know, all the all the doubts, all the things that anyone has about a creative project, plus, how hard it was, and how, you know, how tough it was both to make it and sort of like, also for the people in the film. But that that was, you know, that was really what kept us going. But yeah, I mean, just, you know, you have to, you have to figure it out. I don't know, there's not like one easy answer.
 
John Betancourt: That’s okay. Much prefer the candor to a situation like that, and it helps me to see your passion for this project and that leads me to my next question, why is this subject so important to you?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: The other intention with the film is for it to be very much… like, San Francisco is funny. It's very, it's very, it's much maligned, outside of the Bay Area. Like, there's, I feel like every, like, once a month, there's an article in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, or The New York Times about how screwed up San Francisco is. But it's like, that's, you know, that's my city. Right? Like, my dad was born there, that's where I became an adult, like, that's my city, you know, like, you can't say bad things about it, unless, unless you love it. For me, it was like, both wanting to make a love letter to my city, but then also challenge it, to live up to what it sort of says its values are and what I think it can be, yeah, was really a big, motivating factor, for sure. And then I think, at the same time, you know, like, so I'm sort of in a unique position where I grew up in LA, my dad was born in San Francisco, grew up there, and then moved down to Southern California, which is where I was born. And so, I lived there until I was 18.
 
And then moved back to San Francisco and my parents had gotten divorced at that point. So, he was living in San Francisco at that, at that point, so like, his whole family, extended family… I have four cousins, and like they all live in, oh, five cousins, and they all live in, in San Francisco or like, did when I moved there. And so, seeing, you know, seeing that dichotomy between myself who sort of like, was able to like have a relatively privileged upbringing, I was able to go to like college prep school, and like, all this kind of stuff I like, you know, did that whole route. And then like some other people in my family, our extended family who, you know, maybe didn't have as much opportunity and like how much they were struggling, right, with, just like the basics and stuff like that, and sort of like, just within my family, the sort of like, divergence of life trajectories and sort of, like the challenges that people were facing. Just, I had sort of like a bit of a personal view on the challenges like, quote unquote, working class folks have in the city.
 
And so that I feel like gave me a little bit of a perspective like, it's not just about… like, the other thing that people do is like blame the tech industry, right, which has like, grown in San Francisco. And like, all the people that move there for those good jobs, and it’s sort of like I'm sort of like in this interesting in between positionality, where like, I'm sort of technically, I didn't go to high school in San Francisco. So, I don't necessarily think of myself as a native. But I also have a very deep history and connection to the city. And so, kind of in between, and sort of, like seeing all these things, and it's really, really sort of like stepping back and seeing that like, view of like, “No, we're all in this together. And like, that's the only way we're gonna fix this.” Right? And instead of like, pointing fingers, blaming this industry or that community for the problems, like we really need to sort of, like, accept their role in this together and like, work through it together.
 
John Betancourt: It’s funny you mention that blame game. I’m from Denver, and the city is exploding, and we have our challenges with housing prices and housing for the homeless. But there’s a lot of directionless blame out here as to why, when there is no one reason. So, it’s nice to hear someone say we need to blame less and worry about the problem at hand, since that would solve some problems back home, and clearly, that’s a good reminder of how systemic this has become. But that aside, I do have a few more questions for you. Such as what you hope this feature accomplishes outside of raising awareness.
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: So, I mean, there's a few things. So, the first is I think, and you sort of like touched on this, when you were talking about Denver, is like, this is not just a San Francisco issue like this, like, housing that's affordable to working class people is an issue across the country, right. And so, one of the statistics that we have in the film, I like to talk about like, so when we started working on pitching the film, we would put in this statistic that said, point 1%, so 1/10 of 1% of the counties in the United States, a person working minimum wage can afford a one bedroom apartment, and we finished the film, that number was down to zero. There was no county in the United States where someone working for minimum wage could afford a one bedroom. So, like, that's moving in the wrong direction.
 
So, like, first is like this is affecting every community in the country, no matter where you are, this is affecting the community. And I think the second thing is just trying to really like re engage people's humanity when talking about the issues, and help and really center the fact that like, there are human beings that are struggling, that are part of our community. And like, doing something about making housing affordable for everyone, like making housing affordable and available for everybody in the community, it makes everyone better. And so, understanding it as a public good, instead of like thinking about, like, if we think about the way that we shape our public policy around housing, right, it trends towards maximizing people's property values. Right? And is that necessarily the way that we want to treat housing? Right? It's one of the three essentials for survival, right? Food, water, shelter. We understand that like, clean, safe, affordable drinking water makes our community better, right? Like, we need to have a similar understanding about housing. And if we can sort of reshape our thinking around it to be more like that, then that sort of like shapes, you know, your decision whether or not to oppose an affordable housing project, in your neighborhood, whether or not to, you know, encourage section eight vouchers, whether or not to encourage like, eviction interventions, right.
 
Like, there's so many small, like, the challenge with housing is that there are so many small things that you can do, there's no one silver bullet. But then that's kind of why I think it takes a narrative shift and a cultural shift to really change that, just because you need a lot of people to understand that reframed thinking and make those smaller decisions across a bunch of communities. And there are some national things that we could do like increased funding for Section Eight housing. One of the people who researches this issue we've talked to, has made the point that there's no -- all the research indicates that once someone like becomes homeless, is living on the street. At a minimum, it takes two years for them to turn their life around. There is no federal program that will fund housing for somebody for two years. Right. So, there are things like that that we could do, but it's a bigger issue than just that right. We need to make a lot of small changes to our local communities in how we think about it.
 
John Betancourt: So, you bring up a great point there. Several great points. That we need to start approaching this different, and we need to start thinking about differently and get engaged in our communities. So, let’s dive into that a little further and really explore, what can I and others do differently, to start influencing change on this?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: So, I mean, it's, I think the two big things I kind of touched on this, them a little bit earlier, but the two big things we're like, really thinking about, whenever there's a measure or some sort of like policy thing coming to your to your neighborhood that's like related to housing, or sort of like how we use land, right? Really sort of, like, engage with the issue and stop and think about it and say, like, okay, really thinking this through, like, will this help there be more housing that is affordable, for someone who's, like, you know, working like, a median wage job, right, like minimum wage job, like, someone doesn't make a ton of money? Is this going to actually, like improve that? Or not? Because the other thing is, there's some people that argue that, if we just like got rid of all the regulations and sort of like barriers to housing, we would just like, build all these buildings, and everything would be fine. It's like, is this something that's going to be built, like affordable to people who are working class? That's really the question because it doesn't matter if you have a ton of luxury buildings that nobody can afford to live in. Right?
 
So is this going to make more housing that's affordable for working class people. And then also, I think the other piece, the big piece of what we're hoping to do in the film is like, you know, a lot of white people oppose projects. Whether that's a subsidized affordable housing project, or even something like an apartment building, a duplex, a townhouse in their community… there's a prejudice there. Right. And so really, sort of like stopping and thinking through, examining that, I think, is the other thing I would really like, challenge people to do. Because the people who are going to move into those places, like are literally the people in our film. And so like, someone like, you know, someone like Jacque, like, I'd be happy to have her as a neighbor, right. Like, she's an amazing person. Like, that is sort of the reality, not the stereotypes that you see and hear on… I don't know on NextDoor or whatever.
 
John Betancourt: The last question I have for you today. What are you most proud of when it comes to this project?
 
Kevin Duncan Wong: Um, the thing that I am most proud of is how everybody that's in the film has responded to it. So, we're doing something called an impact campaign, which is, we're trying to raise money to take the film around the country and do free community screenings. And we were applying for a grant for that. And part of that was we asked a couple of people in the film, to sort of like, we had given them a copy of the film to watch, and we asked them to just record something, saying how they felt about it and like, why they supported the project. And Jacque, who's one of the participants in the film, Jacque said, you know, “I started doing this film, because I wanted people to see what was going on and I wanted people to like know what was wrong, but the process of making this film helped me realize how strong I am and how much capacity I have to make a difference.” And that is like the best gift, like her taking something away from the process like that, it's just really like makes me feel, no matter what else happens… no matter… if nobody else sees it, no matter if it doesn't get distribution, like that, I think is the best, the best thing out of this whole thing.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Sharon Price John is a well-known name in the business world. Mainly because she is the CEO of the world-renowned Build-A-Bear, a company that has touched all of our lives in some form or fashion. But recently, Sharon opted to expand her skillset by helping to write the new Build-A-Bear Entertainment film, Glisten and Merry Mission, and we here at NTG were lucky enough to sit down with Sharon to discuss her work on this new feature.
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John Betancourt: What was it that prompted Build-A-Bear to get into visual entertainment?

Sharon Price John: Well, Build-A-Bear has been in some visual entertainment in the past. But there were a couple of things that were two key impetuses for this. One is that there's a changing business model of, how do you speak to kids, create, you know, relationship with kids, like the old advertising model is not as valid as it used to be. And so, the creation of content makes sense, short form, long form, you know, what, from TikToks, to feature films, is a way to create that relationship and introduce new products. But I think more importantly, Build-A-Bear recognizes that we, for over 25 years now, we've sold 250 million furry friends, all of which have stories that are created by the guest, you know, and they all have names, and they all have story arcs, and they all have character arcs. And, you know, it's just, it's an integral part of who we are already. It's woven into, I think, the magic of Build-A-Bear. And the idea that we would take that one step further, and create sub stories and intellectual property, inside our own vertically integrated retail stores, where we introduce it to people in those locations. Whether that's Honey Girls, which we launched with a film some years ago or (Glisten and the) Merry Mission makes sense.

So, we look to where there's opportunity, and we wanted to provide guests a reason to celebrate the holidays together each year. And I say this carefully, but not just find the bear under the tree. But you know, come to Build-A-Bear make this reindeer have the, you know, have this, this experience together, which is what we're all about. But in the in the creation of that construct, it was important that, you know, we have a story that holds us together. Why are these reindeer here? What are they doing? Do they have a mission? And the answer was, yes, they have a merry mission. And so, we launched this a few years ago as an idea of bringing families together during the holiday, maybe after they've gone to visit Santa in the mall, or maybe before they go visit Santa in the mall. And then we introduce Glisten, but it was really the reindeer were trying to solve this Nice List issue, that there were too many kids on the Nice List. Which is a great problem to have, right? And the reindeer are like, “Wow, we know where there's another workshop. We can help.” That was the underlying idea.

John Betancourt: So, you’re more than a CEO, you’re also a writer as well, and I am very curious as to what inspired you to step in and co-write this particular story?

Sharon Price John: Well, an awful lot of things in a CEO role come out of need versus desire. (Laughter from Sharon and John) Yeah, and so, there wasn't some secret intention of, “Hey, I really want to be a writer and an executive producer.” That was not the way this happened. It happened that we saw a business model opportunity through the holiday season, which of course, is a very high traffic time period for shopping centers and toy purchases and product companies and products like ours. And you know, you’re wanting to make sure that you're finding a way to optimize when the consumers are already in a certain mindset. And so that's where we really wanted to find this story. And this was, it just kind of struck me about that I didn't want to create an antagonist. I didn't want to have like a bad guy that would make you want to come to Build-A-Bear. I wanted it to be all positive, because that's really what we're about, and that idea that the Nice List was too long, so it felt like a nice hook and I did some research on that, and really, to my knowledge to this day, that really had never been a hook of the problem that needed to be solved, and it was a great, you know, a great problem to have. So, that was successful. And we were able to create, you know, every reindeer with one reindeer because you could then choose his, you know, his or her sort of medallion to name the reindeer. That was the original idea. And then we brought Glisten out the second year, and each of the reindeer, we made half the reindeers’ girls, and half the reindeer guys, which was also something people were like, “Well, you can't do that.” I'm like, “Yeah, yeah, I can.” I simply did.

And, and then we made, you know, Glisten, and grounded her in this idea of believing. That you have to believe before you can see her. And that's how she's able to save the holiday. Now, that was just the simple story from the original idea. And I just ended up creating that because I'm a marketer, at heart, and also, I have a writing background. But that was not the objective. And then when this continued to be so successful, and we continued to flesh out the story over time, you know, we believed that there was something bigger here and started thinking through how to bring in different characters, how to elevate the story, how to construct something where you're actually appropriately exploring things like, you know, a single mother who's working, who gets put into a difficult situation, and her daughter, and how her daughter's watching that and how she evolves during that, or the kind of… the discussions between the elves and the reindeer. Where the elves are trying to keep it the way it was, and the reindeer trying to move it into modern technology and all of that, that happens in the work environment or in just today's world.

And do it in a really fun way, you know, and you've got the person that worries about everything, and the one that believes it's all gonna be all right, and how that all comes together, you've got Grizz, this character who… he's not really a bad guy, people just think he's a bad guy, therefore, ergo, he's a bad guy. But still, doesn't he deserve a good teddy bear in his life? You have the wisdom of Santa, as well as the wisdom of Sage Evergreen playing a really important role here. And the thing that keeps moving the story forward, is again, there's no antagonist, the thing that keeps moving the story forward is life. Life just keeps happening. And the big unlock here is, what do you do in these moments? And how do you come together? And how do you think about those things? That’s a very strong message for children.

John Betancourt: I very much appreciated the fact that this movie has messaging to offer to children. Since a lot of holiday films lean into the fluffy. But speaking of that messaging, since there is more than one message here, what kinds of challenges did you run into in bringing so many themes and concepts together?

Sharon Price John: Um, yeah, to weave all of that together in a way that did not feel overwhelming… was… was not that easy. So, part of it is we wanted to make sure there was enough lightheartedness in it, that if you didn't really want to delve into some of these, you didn't really have to, you know, but there's always that. Some people look at the same situations and see different levels of depth, and is there meaning to this? Or isn't there meaning to this? So, you know, the Nice List machine is broken, is there meaning or it just happened? Who knows, you know, but that is what happens in life. Things get in the way; they don't go exactly like you planned. Even when you think you're doing everything right. The teddy bears can weigh more than you planned, even though it's the best and the right thing to do. How are you going to find the solution for these things? And sometimes it is, at the end of the day, sometimes it is still just about believing. What are you putting out there? What how are you approaching this and the beautiful thing about it is that like so many Christmas stories, it is the sole belief of a child that pushes it over the edge.

John Edward Betancourt: I hear a lot of passion and joy as you speak about this project. What did you enjoy the most about working on this?

Sharon Price John: It… as I'm sure you've heard when, when something that was just an inkling of an idea you know, sort of a wake up in the middle of the night, “Oh, we'll just make the Nice List too long and that'll work, it will work its way out.” This now turned into a feature animated film filled with incredible talent that was moved by the story as much as anything, that has now come to full fruition and going to be in theaters with our great partner Cinemark. You know, that’s just a remarkable journey. And almost like the journey of Glisten herself. It was just all of these things, you know, not everything was perfect and the creation of anything like this is not always going to go without flaw. And so when you get “here's another thing,” we work it out. And here's another thing, and it's turned out to be, I think it… almost looks like a classic film, the way we chose to do it, but is dealing with a lot of more modern but forever themes. And we just had to believe in many cases.

John Betancourt: What are you most proud of when it comes to this project?

Sharon Price John: I think it's the combination of all of the extraordinary contributions. Of the talent, the writers, the directors, the foundation media, when Cinemark stepped up, my whole team here. It’s not just a movie, this is an entire ecosystem, from you know, music to music videos, to gaming, I mean, we're gonna have a Roblox inside of our Roblox game, we're gonna have like, little Glisten and Merry Missions. We've got an app where you can help them get, you know, get the names on the Nice List and help them get back teddy bears. I mean, it is a complete ecosystem. And we used the same mantra inside, which is, you know, we're on a merry mission, and the team really got fired up about it and made it happen. So, we're very eager, but it's fun to watch an entire organization, get really enthused about a project.

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.