Adrianne and Adam Lobel, and the children of famed children’s author Arnold Lobel, who wrote the iconic Frog and Toad book series. Currently they serve as the Executive Producers of the Apple TV+ series of the same name, and we here at NTG had the great honor of sitting down with both of them to discuss season two of this magnificent series!
 
John Betancourt: I would like to know what it means to each of you to be granted a second season to continue this story on television.
 
Adrianne Lobel: Well, I'm thrilled that they picked it up for a second season. I mean, they made originally 18 episodes. No more than that, so, you know, it'd be sad if they didn't all get to air. Just they're good.
 
Adam Lobel: Just, you know, it's sort of it just reinforces that people are watching the show, you know, it's hard in the world of streamers, you don't get the traditional Nielsen ratings. So, you sort of don't know whether everybody's happy with the show, unless they decide to keep it going. So yeah, we're thrilled.
 
John Betancourt: Now, since you’re so close to the story, I’m quite curious as to why you each think this saga continues to resonate?
 
Adrianne Lobel: I think Frog and Toad continue to live on because the world is, excuse me, such a shitshow right now. And people need a cozy, particularly children, but also adults, need a nice cozy place to go where, you know, people are friends, love each other, and they solve each other's problems. And, you know, it's all… it's okay. Everything is okay in Frog and Toad.
 
Adam Lobel: It’s the simple stories that just resonate. And now this, you know, you maybe you grew up on the stories, and maybe you read them to your kids. So, there's a style aspect to it, you know, people will go, “Oh, right. I remember that. I was five when I read the story, or I was three when my parents read this story to me.”
 
Adrianne Lobel: That’s cozy too.
 
Adam Lobel: Yeah, nostalgia is important. You know, regardless of how screwed up the world is.
 
John Betancourt: In general, what are you each most excited people to experience in this new season of storytelling?
 
Adrianne Lobel: Well, it's funny, because we saw all of the episodes, but not necessarily in any order. And I have not watched them in actuality, during the TV airing. So, I don't know which episodes were in the first season, and which episodes are going to be in the second season. So, it's a difficult question to answer. I'm just happy they're all going to be seen.
 
Adam Lobel: I think that season one did have more of you know, there were you know, there were only 20 original Frog and Toad stories, five per book, four books. So, some all-new material had to be created, which was what I think was our biggest fear for the decades leading up to this is, if we're going to do something, whether it's a feature, whether it's TV show, we're gonna have to have new Frog and Toad stories. And Rob Hogee and his team, you know, they gave us scripts, and, you know, it was clear right from the start, that they treated the material with a great deal of respect. And, you know, we felt like we were in good hands, and I really liked some of the new stories, you know, that was my big fear moving forward was, you know, somebody else is going to be writing Frog and Toad stories, and what if I hate them? Right? So, it's gratifying that they that they're able to, to have new ones.
 
Adrianne Lobel: And I don't know if this has happened to you, Adam, but oftentimes, people will say, “Well, why don't you write some new Frog and Toad? You know, like the Babar guy did. And you know, my answer is, are you kidding? I wouldn't touch it.
 
Adam Lobel: I will not. Besides, I think there's a chatbot AI that specializes Frog and Toad stories now. (Laughter from everyone.)
 
John Betancourt: To follow up on that, I’m curious as to what your involvement was in the creation of those new stories.
 
Adrianne Lobel: We read them. And if there were language issues that bothered us, or if something didn't strike true for the characters, we would give them notes, and they generally listened to us.
 
Adam Lobel: I mean, they were, like I said, they were very respectful. And they took our opinions. And they created their own versions, but they were true to the originals. And they listened to us when they got something that we thought was wrong. You know, and particularly early on, I think we were more setting the pace and, and some of the rhythm and the like, we, you know, there are no contractions in Frog and Toad. Nobody says “isn't” or, you know, “it's.” So, things like that had to be maybe pointed out once.
 
Adrianne Lobel: And one of the reasons for that. I mean, it's partly the way my father wrote, but it was also because he was writing for kids to read out loud for the first time themselves. So, you have to learn how to say “is not” before you can read “isn't.”
 
John Betancourt: Oh my gosh, I had never noticed that before.
 
Adrianne Lobel:  And the other thing is, they would say, you know, some skeptics, I think referred to “Mr. Fish” or something like that. And I said, “there are no Mr. And Mrs. or any of that in the book.” They're either Fish or Frog or Toad or Turtle. As if there are none others in the world.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today. What are you most proud of when it comes to this show and all the buzz and wonder that it's accomplished?
 
Adrianne Lobel: It's exciting. I mean, I love that it's all over the world. And you get reviews from everywhere, Australia, Japan. You know, he (Arnold Lobel) would be thrilled.
 
Adam Lobel: Yeah, that for me, that's, you know, I think he liked animation a great deal. And so, I think he would be pleased with the final product. And the fact that it's out there. And the fact that 50 years after the first book came, 55 years after –
 
Adrianne Lobel: He’d be shocked.
 
Adam Lobel: Oh yeah. The characters are still alive and are still growing and are still becoming other things.
 
Adrianne Lobel: I mean, I can't actually think of another children's book that has had this lengthy a life. I mean, maybe Good Night Moon, but there's no I mean, there are wonderful books –
 
Adam Lobel: But it’s not a series. It's referenced and you know, people discuss it, but it hasn't necessarily evolved into a next form.
 
Adrianne Lobel: Yeah. My daughter's 22 And she's in college and Frog and Toad are so cool. Her friends think you know –
 
Adam Lobel: They have tattoos, tattoos!
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Rob Hoegee is an accomplished writer and producer that has worked on a bevy of family shows. Currently, he serves as showrunner of the hit Apple TV+ series, Frog and Toad and we here at NTG had the distinct honor of sitting down with Rob to discuss season two of the show!
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John Betancourt: I would love to know how you became involved as the showrunner of this series.
 
Rob Hoegee: You know, I always had the good fortune of being involved in another apple TV series called Stillwater. And, you know, and due to sort of the success of that, and the relationship I had with Apple, we were looking for another project that I could work with them on. And as it happened, they were in talks with the Lobels about the possibility of making Frog and Toad as a series. Little did they know that Frog and Toad has been the book that I've wanted to make as a show for as long as I've done in animation. And when Apple said, “Hey, do you know about these Frog and Toad books?” I probably fell out of my chair. Actually, I'm pretty sure I did. So yes, needless to say, I quite literally jumped at the chance of being involved in this, that with the Lobels, we had a great conversation about what, I hate to say, my sort  vision for the show would be, and that kind of boils down to a very accurate and faithful adaptation of these books that we love so much, knowing, of course, that they are going to be animated, so we need to sort of take advantage of all that that brings to the party in terms of enhancing the visuals and giving more life movement to the characters and all those kinds of things that you know, you want to take advantage of in moving pictures. And we definitely all sort of agreed upon, you know, my sort of take on the show was very much in alignment with what they wanted to see. And keep in mind, the Lobels had been working in various attempts to adapt this for, you know, decades, you know, either as a television show or as a feature, or as you know, all these numbers of things. And so, it really just kind of became this sort of kind of stars aligning, you know, the right production partner, you know, the right studio, but you know, the streamer behind it being Apple, the right animation studio, which was Titmouse, the right creative team. And yeah, and the Lobels sort of support, along the way.
 
John Betancourt With this being dream project, obviously the one that you always wanted, were there any pressures that were upon you in bringing this to life?
 
Rob Hoegee: Well, not necessarily. I mean, we knew that… this goes for me, as well as pretty much everyone that was involved in the show, be it cast or crew or, you know, it was we all love these books, and we love these characters, and we sort of… one of the first questions that we would ask, when we were interviewing, you know, artists and crew members was, before they even knew what the show was, you know, do you like Frog and Toad? And judging by their reaction, we knew that we had a pretty good idea if they were going to be a good fit for what we were doing. And you know, that was not the only criteria, but a lot of people on the show read these books are really important to them. So, I think the pressure was not an external thing. It was all sort of internal, we all really wanted to do good by these books and these characters.
 
John Betancourt: That’s actually really cool. I had no idea you really looked into their passion for the project prior to them joining the show. So, that explains a lot, explains why it turned out so well.
 
Rob Hoegee: It’s not just the project, especially in animation, we are always passionate about any show we do regardless of what it is because you know, we love what we do. And when the source material of something that you have a real personal connection to it makes it even more special.
 
John Betancourt: I stand corrected, It's always a passionate product. Now shifting gears a bit, I’m quite curious as to why you think this show continues to resonate so well with audiences after all these years.
 
Rob Hoegee: You know, there's something about the simplicity of the characters, the simplicity of the stories and the simplicity of quite literally the words on the page. You know, these books were created specifically as easy readers, these, these are books that taught millions upon millions upon millions, you know, probably into the hundreds of millions at this point, kids learn to read all around the world with these books. And if you think about it, you know, if you're reading a story book at night before you go to bed, you know you are literally holding these books close to your heart. It's sort of like literal and metaphorically speaking. And so, but there's so there's always been this sort of close connection that we have with something for whatever reason with these characters. You know, I do feel like, you know, in a lot of ways, The simpler you get, the more opportunity you have for complexity.
 
So, you know, these are very, very simple stories, but within them, they're -- and this is sort of the genius of Arnold Lobel, not only with the language, but with the visuals, he was able to capture moments, just like these little tiny moments in time, whether it's an expression or the way that frog leaps in the air when he's gifted this coat of Toads with all these buttons sewn on. Just the expressions of joy, of happiness, of sadness, of fear, every realm of human emotion is captured in these characters. And in a way that's not overbearing, or pedantic, but a way that we all can relate to and understand. There is a little bit of Frog and Toad and all of us, at the simplest level, you know, kids can see, you know, I'm feeling the BLAH today like Toad, or I'm feeling happy and excited today, like Frog, we have Frogs and Toads inside each of us. And, and so in that sense, the relatability of not only the characters, but the stories that they're in is, is absolutely universal.
 
John Betancourt: Now in speaking with the Lobels, I came to learn that you and your team gave life to new Frog and Toad stories for this show, was it difficult to create new stories forthis show?
 
Rob Hoegee: It was very difficult, and I was blessed with an incredible writing staff. We sort of made it our life's mission to be able to pull off almost an impossible feat, which is to write an entirely new Frog and Toad story that if we did it right would be indistinguishable from what something that Arnold Lobel would do. And I knew that we were on the right track, when every once in a while we would, you know, when someone from the crew would be like, “Wait, no, is this one original? Or was this one from the book?” And then we know that this is an original one. So that was a lot of fun to be able to sort of try to crack that. And again, it was really about digging into what makes these characters tick. And also, what makes a good Frog and Toad story. You know, again, it comes down to sort of that simplicity, and that sort of character base that you know, the character base motivations that drive those stories forward.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to what you put together here?
 
Rob Hoegee: You know, as a huge fan of the books, you know, obviously, you know, being able to bring these to life was an incredible joy and an incredible honor. You know, it's not very often in your career that you're given a blue-chip property such as this. I mean, if you think out in the world of animation, the things that we've seen, and they're based on books that are so -- whether it's Peanuts, or something from Maurice Sendak, you know, Arnold Lobel’s frog and Toad are right there with it, and being able to be involved with that, uh, you know, it was… it was an incredible honor and incredible privilege. You know, I'm really proud that we can bring these characters to a medium, which lends itself very well to these characters in the stories that they tell. And so yeah, just being able to be involved with that has been, you know, been a career highlight for sure.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Ellen Bennett is a highly accomplished chef and entrepreneur. For she brought life to the iconic brand, Hedley & Bennett, which offers upgraded cooking gear for use in professional and home kitchens. Ellen’s latest project is serving as the host of Kitchen Glow Up, a new series on Tastemade where Ellen transforms kitchens in need of upgrades, and we here at NTG had the distinct honor of sitting down with Ellen, to discuss her new project!  
 
John Betancourt I was very curious to learn what inspired the creation of this series?
 
Ellen Bennett: Well, I am a deep food lover, and nerd, and chef. And so, I wanted to combine all of that. My several years of cooking professionally, but I also love design. And I felt like there was this missing opportunity here where people should be able to not only make their kitchen look awesome, but also work. And in professional kitchens. Nobody cares about the visuals of it. They just care about, does it flow? Can you pump out 400 dishes a night? Can you find things easily? Can you not waste food? Can you maintain your food margins, right? And so, if we could apply some of those to the home consumer, oh my god like what a game changer and with my background about fitting professional kitchens. After cooking professionally through Hedley & Bennett, my company, I feel like I got a firsthand look at restaurants. And now we also outfit home cooks too. So, it's kind of like, my whole career has been embroiled in outfitting inspiring dignity and pride in the kitchen on all these different facets. And now I, I get to go into people's actual homes that are not professionals and be like, guess what, you're not professional, but we can make you feel more professional. And it's not expensive. And you can do it in all different facets. I mean, the show has everything from single people on the show to married couples that have kids, one family had five kids, another one was a retired family that had like two people 75-80 years old, that is like every single person's parents. So, you kind of got to see all the ways that kitchens had a lot of dysfunction and how to fix it in lots of different capacities.
 
John Betancourt: So, this is something you're really passionate about, what is it about the process of going in and doing this kid of work, that just gets you so excited?
 
Ellen Bennett: Well, I love to cook. And I recognize that every person on the show also loves to cook, and they have all these like barriers stopping them from having a good experience in it. And so, you can change that, you're actually kind of doing a lot more than just giving somebody a glow up, right? There's like a life change in that. And there were a lot of moments in the show that got really emotional for people, like they were letting go of things that you know, they had loved ones that passed away. And they'd been clenching and holding on to pans and pots and plates that were from grandma, etcetera. But it was ruining their day-to-day life experience. And so, it was almost like watching people get out of the past and into the present a little bit. And that was awesome. And I really enjoyed that. Not just because I love food, and I love to make people look great in the kitchen like that's the whole ethos of Hedley & Bennett, but it was it was this like catharsis that I inevitably gave them that made it really special and kind of purposeful, like there was like soul to it. So, it made it not be just like a random design show. Oh, look at the kitchen. Look how pretty it is. It's like, no, no, we're fixing your kitchen, we're fixing your life a little. And we're also going to make you look and feel better when you're at home in the space that you're using every day. Like no one takes a day off from using their kitchen. Right? It's always there. You always got to eat. 
 
John Betancourt: Which brings me to a follow-up question. There’s an upcoming episode where you really go above and beyond to help someone in the kitchen. What does it mean to you to be able to do that for people?
 
Ellen Bennett: That episode was wild, John, like I, first of all, she didn't really want to do it. It was her daughter that signed her up. So, you know, there was there was some of that attached to this. So, I feel a real responsibility to get her there to the other side. And, you know, at the end of it when she walked through that kitchen, she was like, “I can't believe the changes that you made that I didn't even realize I needed to have those changes made.” And to have like an older person who sort of set in their ways say that, to me was like pretty amazing. And I felt like it was transformative to her because you know, she had a stroke, like she had all these life ailments. And that was the first episode that I realized this is so much deeper than just a kitchen remodeling show. And it made me have an even bigger commitment to like getting this right. And it's not just for TV magic, it's like, in fact, our entire crew was like, “Whoa, this is so much deeper,” as far as the output than a normal show, because the normal remodel show, you just paint stuff, and you shove everything away in the cabinets. And no one looks inside, because it's just like, okay, get the good shot and hide everything. Whereas for us, it was like, no, every Cabinet had to be labeled, reorganized, emptied, purged, cleaned, restructured, put into containers, like that is a level for TV magic, that doesn't normally happen. So, I think it was pretty cool. Because our whole crew, it was an experience for them to they were not used to that level of detail. 
 
John Betancourt: I don’t think anyone is to be honest. Because you made me think about things I should perhaps fix up in my own kitchen from an organization standpoint.
 
Ellen Bennett: And you know, it's funny, John, is that there were days where our camera crew would go home. And they would say Ellen, and we're talking about like a 40-year-old dude. Right? Who's like, not mister kitchen guy. And he'd be like, “Ellen, I went home, and my wife and I organized our spice storage.” And I would be like, “yes, it's working. This is awesome.” And it's like, it's so it might feel so silly and small. But like if that made that guy, cook more at home, have more time with his wife create more memories, like I'm actually impacting people in a bigger way than they realize.
 
John Betancourt: Now one important question I need to ask, is how you selected the participants for this show.
 
Ellen Bennett: So, good question. So, they had to love cooking. This is not just a show for like anybody who has a kitchen sign up. You have to love to cook, and you have to hate your kitchen. So, it's the juxtaposition of polar opposites. It's like they are committed to cook in their kitchen. They're so terrible, regardless of how bad they are in the kitchen, right. And so that was that was kind of like check number one. And then the other one had to be each one needed to be different enough from another so that we could show people that it didn't matter if you had $10,000 or $50,000, you can, actually make a change in your kitchen and have it be approachable. And not just like some luxury before and after design show. And you know, there's kitchens all over New York City that are the size of a shoe box, right? And professional kitchens and home kitchens. So, we want people to be able to watch these episodes, and be like, “Well, there's my mom in episode two. Now I need to go do that for her. Oh, here I am in episode four, a single lady, you know, out and about, but loves to throw big dinner parties. Okay, how can I change my kitchen.” And I think that's what's fun about it. There's like a real kind of, there's shifts in it. It's not the same cookie cutter edition for each kitchen, which was challenging for me too. Because it was never like just rinse and repeat. It was like, “Oh, damn, how are we going to tackle this kitchen with their five kids and the dogs and all that?” 
 
John Betancourt: That brings us right to my next question that I wanted to ask, what kind of challenges you ran into in creating this? Because you had a very small crew. Definitely not a truckload coming in to work on this stuff overnight. You guys really did the DIY thing.
 
Ellen Bennett: Yeah, well, you nailed it. Small crew, like I was the designer. And I led all of the drawings and the layouts of you know, that was like the chef lens. I think the one of the big, big tricky parts was, in many cases, it was a little bit of like time, right? So, we gave ourselves two weeks per episode to remodel an entire kitchen. And sometimes we were taking walls out. So that was pretty intense and aggressive. And I think the other challenge was convincing people to let go of things that they had for a really long time without making them do anything, like we were there to help them right. Like I am there as their, sort of copilot, and counselor, if you will, but I cannot force people to get rid of their grandma's favorite ceramic dishes. So, it was a happy dance of respecting their things that they had these huge emotional connections to while also kind of making sure that they could trust me enough to say, “You know what Ellen, like by holding on to these 40 plates that I haven't used, except for at Christmas. I'm ruining my experience cooking 364 days the rest of the year because I have to move All those plates to get to my pans every time and that sucks.” And then I'm just gonna go out and order crappy Thai food, or whatever, like crappy takeout. And so, I think it's important to note that piece that was hard. That was really hard, like people, people got emotional. It was it was tricky to navigate that.
 
John Betancourt: Well, that makes sense. Because I mean, there is a very emotional attachment to food I think we all have. It means something to us to cook a certain meal sometimes, and things like that.
 
Ellen Bennett: There are memories attached to them too, like memories with your grandma or memories with your dad. And, and so you're like asking people to get rid of these memories in a way. But then I was also like, “Hey, by bringing you to a present moment, you can actually create new memories, instead of being held on to all this stuff.” That's just like weighing you down, and you didn't even realize it.
 
John Betancourt: Now on the flip side of that, we do see your team working to overcome some of those logistical challenges, and I’m sure for running time’s sake we just saw a sample that. So, I am curious, what did we not see on camera when it came to those logistical surprises?
 
Ellen Bennett: I think what we didn't see is just the tremendous amount of effort and care that the team put into doing it, right. Right? Like there was so much reorganization that wasn't even captured, frankly, like, there were not drawers that we skipped over, because they didn't go on the show. We did every drawer, we did every notebook, we did every sink, we did every under the counter of the sink, right. And so, you know, there were days where we're there till midnight, and we were organizing and labeling things, which is not usually typical of a design show, like your, you know, the contractors are running behind, and they're painting and that's the stuff that like gets shown. But we were making sure that when we walked away these people actually had a pro great kitchen that they could live in. And that took way more work than anyone anticipated, including our entire crew.
 
John Betancourt: But they do look great. I must say the first ones that I saw like… that is quite the transformation for sure. 
 
Ellen Bennett: So, I mean on a shoestring budget, because if you've got like, true kitchen renovations are like 75 to $100,000. And you're not talking about like a mansion in Beverly Hills, you're talking about like a normal kitchen. So, the fact that we can pull this off with 10,020 like the older woman's house… that was a $10,000 remodel. 
 
John Betancourt: Now, not everyone that tunes in will want to commit to doing the full on, you know, kitchen swap out or tearing it apart like that, which is totally fine, too. But obviously every series wants to accomplish something from a messaging standpoint, so what do you hope people that tune take away from this series?
 
Ellen Benett: I think it's really like, it's gonna give people creative inspiration, that whether they want to tackle one drawer or the entire kitchen that they have the assets to do it. It starts with themselves and time, right? Like, it doesn't cost anything to purge an empty every drawer out, right? If you want to just start with your pots and pans. And you're like, these are a disaster. And I've been holding on to pots and pans for 16 years that I got from my wedding registry, and I haven't used them once. It's like, okay, cool. Well guess what you can give it to a friend, you can donate it, or you can move it into storage, but it doesn't need to live in your kitchen anymore. And I guarantee you, if you just do one of those, one time, like one little zone, you're going to be cooked because there's this like, catharsis that comes with it and in a sort of therapeutic appeal. And I'll tell you what, during COVID I redid my kitchen, like three different times, organizing it and when I got stressed out, I'd go redo my pantry. And it was just really, I would step back at the end of the night and have my hands on my hips. I'd be like, “Look at this, this looks so good. And I would feel better.” So, I think people are going to hopefully be inspired to do that. So instead of just watching TV to watch TV, have a watch TV and get something out of it and then go you know, apply it in your real life. That's what I hope. 
 
John Betancourt: You’ve accomplished so much, and your passion is endless. What about all this drives you so intensely?
 
Ellen Bennett: You know, I started my company when I was 24 years old and I had no money, no connections, no resources. And I really did… it began with like, I want to give people dignity and pride in the kitchen. And it was the kind of vessel if you will, was the apron. And that vessel just keeps like morphing into more things and Hedley & Bennett, knives, etc. But I've always kind of played this like long game approach. And so, by getting to build little bricks of foundation on this thing that I built, which was heavily invented, and then getting to build something like this, this TV show, to me, I'm just like adding more bricks to the wall. And I'm not necessarily looking for like, instantaneous results and output, but I'm thinking about like, the long game. How can I show people this dignity and pride that I created and Hedley & Bennett, but for the home? Well, a huge factor in people getting into the kitchen is that they don't have any organization in it. And they can't find their pots and pans. So, then they don't cook at home, and they go do something else. So, let's remove that barrier and get them to cook in the kitchen. Right? So, it's kind of like all intertangled in a funny, Twizzler way, it all has to do with like making people feel better. And that's a purpose. And so, I'm not just doing it to do it. I'm like, there's a why behind it. And I think that drives a lot of the inspiration. And some of my best memories in my life have been in kitchens and around kitchens, and it's offered me so many channels and opportunities. And as a, you know, woman that was raised by a mom, that single Mexican mom with not all the opportunities in the world, like, how awesome that I get to do all this stuff, doing something that I love to do. So, like, yeah, I'm just grateful for all those opportunities.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today is What are you most proud of when it comes to this particular project?
 
Ellen Bennett: I am really proud of this, John, that I saw this in my head many, many years ago with Andrew Zimmern. And we didn't know what it was gonna look like. But we knew we wanted to do something together. So, to see it kind of like bloom out of nothing, is maybe one of my biggest joys in being an entrepreneur. It's like you see an idea. And then you see it come to life. And this is truly something that was very much in my head, and I didn't have all the words to describe it. And the show is even more than the words to describe. It's like that is what I wanted. I wanted to show people how to make a kitchen better, I wanted to glow it up, I wanted to make it approachable and that anybody could do it. And I didn't want it to be like elitist in any way. I wanted everybody to feel like you know what, “I can do this. I'm gonna go tackle that. And I'm very pro action.” Like, I wrote a book called Dream First Details Later. That's this show in a nutshell. Like, we're not planning every single thing. We're like, we're getting in there and we're finding all the skeletons and then we figure out how to deal with them. And so, action is my middle name. So, I think with this show is that… I hope it makes people feel enthusiastic to go and tackle their kitchen with a lot of action.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Ashley Michel Hoban serves as the showrunner of ‘Dr. Death’ on Peacock, and we had the opportunity to speak with her about season two of the show, before its release in December of 2023. As luck would have it, Ashley was in attendance at SeriesFest this year for a pair of panels, giving us the opportunity and honor of speaking with Ashley again, to follow-up with her regarding the show, now that season two is on the airwaves.
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John Betancourt: What does it mean to you for season two to have been so well received by audiences and critics alike?
 
Ashley Michel Hoban: It's special because I, you know, I've been working with Patrick Macmanus for a long time and to be able to try to hold up and live up to what he created in the first season was a very important goal. So, I'm very lucky. And I'm very proud that people are enjoying it.
 
John Betancourt: The more I've had time to reflect on season two after watching it, the more I’ve realized that it is very much a lesson about standing up for oneself and doing the right thing. What does it mean to you to be someone that shepherded a story that really inspires people to hopefully to stand up when they see an injustice in the world,
 
Ashley Michel Hoban: It's meaningful to be able to kind of create a story that informs you, you have to be your own advocate, you're going to be your first advocate whenever you're dealing with doctor and health. So, I don't know it's kind of an honor to be able to have a platform, especially with Littleton Road, that people can go and find, find different ways to help them learn how to advocate so that's really special.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to what season two accomplished?
 
Ashley Michel Hoban: I am proud of bringing awareness to the eight plus, possible more, victims of Paolo Macchiarini. I'm proud that that we were able to tell their stories truthfully. And I hope that their families and those that are still with us, are able to feel proud of themselves about what we were able to show and that we honored their lives and stories.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Tamara Podemski is a highly accomplished actor that continues to grace the small screen with her incredible presence and ability to help us relate to the character she is playing. Currently she plays Deputy Sheriff Joy on the Prime Video series, Outer Range, and we here at NTG had the honor of sitting down with Tamara to discuss Joy’s journey in season two.
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John Betancourt: I would love to get started by knowing what you're most excited for audience to experience from Joy's very important journey this season.
 
Tamara Podemski: I think the audience will enjoy, Joy, becoming the badass that she was always meant to be.
 
John Betancourt: What does it mean to be a part of a show that takes the time to do something this ambitious with a character?
 
Tamara Podemski: Um, well, first, it was very surprising. I certainly didn't expect to be the recipient of a bottle episode. Like that. I've never had the privilege or opportunity to dig that deep into a character. I mean, we shot 204 in three and a half weeks. It was a career highlight. It was a personal triumph. I worked so hard. I trained so hard for it from the stunts to the horse, the horseback riding to the Shoshone language. It's a huge, huge responsibility. And I really, I was, I was so honored that Amazon and our showrunner Charles Murray and our writers, and producers trusted me… to tell that story.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious as to what you're hoping audiences will take away from season two as a whole.
 
Tamara Podemski: I think what I'm excited for but also like asking of them, we're trusting that they have, you know, that they want to do the work, that they want to think about it all. I think it is a smart show. There are no you know, maybe there are some right or wrong answers of things that really did happen and things that didn't, but there is also some things that just can't be explained and how, okay, are you to sit in the uncertainty, the unknowingness. I think that's really what season two, I think that's what our show asks people you know, this, the unknown, can you sit with the unknown? Can you be with the unanswerable and still not just dismiss it all and write it all off? Can you still show up, rise and fight for like, fight the good fight. But I do hope that the audience kind of, I don't know is, is up for the work of it, you know, this isn't a sit back, kick back and we'll spoon feed you everything. We're asking you, and I think that's what we love about our real hardcore Outer Range viewers, is that they love, figuring it out. They love it problem solving. So, we promise to give a lot more problem solving in season two and answers… but still problem solving.
 
John Betancourt: What are you most proud of when it comes to your work on this show?
 
Tamara Podemski: I think you know, just the, the feat of filming on location. I wish I could put people like, a day in the life of what it is to film on location in New Mexico in spring. This is with snowstorms, thunderstorms, dust storms, rain, like wind that you can't… you're sure is going to turn into a hurricane, the elements -- and it's what you get with that, those that epic landscape like you get to enjoy the beauty of it. But if you want that you have to deal with the elements. So really, I think, and you know, we have incredible film crews like our crew is amazing. Our background extras especially for most of you know, episode 204 where it's all exterior. So yeah, to really find your peace with the natural world and I think especially at a time and things are pulling so far away from the natural world. That's one of the things I'm most proud about this show also is that we are thrown into the elements, and you feel that, and I do really believe that comes across on screen.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, if you had to describe season two in a single word… what would that word be?
 
Tamara Podemski: Reconciliation.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Heather Sishco and Emilio Navarro are a pair of fierce competitors that recently took their competitive fire to the next level by participating in Race to Survive: New Zealand on USA Network. Wherein they battled alongside eight other teams to grab hold of $500,000 by way of taxing physical challenges and an outright fight to survive a harsh environment, and we here at NTG were lucky enough to sit down with this duo to discuss their experiences on the show.
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John Betancourt: Just have to start off by saying, congrats on taking part in one incredible race. That I watched… from the comfort of my couch. But it was breathtaking.
 
Emilio Navarro: You got tired just watching us. Right?
 
John Betancourt I genuinely did, and I must know more! Like how each of you became involved in this epic competition.
 
Emilio Navarro: How we got involved well, I casted for season one through another friend of mine that actually got me the connect, he's the one who asked me to do it. And then that fell through. However, that happened. And all of a sudden Season Two came around, and I was asked if I would want to compete and cast. But I couldn't. My other friend wasn't available. So, I ended up asking Heather and Heather was more than happy to take it on, you know, a, she's a teammate, and she was watching. No, she never has any excuses. And we cast it. And we were fortunate to be part of this unbelievable experience.
 
Heather Sishco: Oh, so I got dragged in by Emilio, but it wasn't that hard. Like he said, he asked someone else, that fell through, and he called me up and was like “what's going on!? And was like, “I'll get you on the show. Let's go.” And then he, he finally gave me a shot. And we got on the show. It was pretty, it was really cool. So, for me, I literally found out about it. And a month and a half later, we're flying out to New Zealand. So, it was a very short window for me from actually casting to getting to New Zealand.
 
John Betancourt: That leads me right into my next question. Now that I know you had such a short timeframe there. Was there any kind of like fast-tracked training that you guys went through to kind of get ready for this, it was just kind of pack your gear and plan and get moving.
 
Heather Sishco: So, we train physically, all the time, I run a gym and he's an ultra-marathoner, so we're constantly working out, we work out, that's why we're kind of we're buddies, plus separate, and we're always training, always hustling. So that piece was okay. But Emilio… we instantly did a crash course which I'll let him explain, but we our crash coursed everything else, it was pretty, pretty wild.
 
Emilio Navarro: No official course, we never really went camping or had all that outdoor experience. So, we ended up having to learn how to navigate, use a compass. So, you know, we're Googling and we’re You-Tubing. I mean, we also had to learn how to set up a tarp. I mean, there was no tent allowed. So, it was setting up tarps, different styles of tarps to set up depending on the conditions. Because the conditions in New Zealand were unbelievable, you'll be hot for a few hours, you go up a little bit of some elevation and all of a sudden, a storm and a monsoon starts It just shifts from hour to hour. And so, you know, at any moment you’ve got to be able to set up the areas that that you need for that that environment, as well as our own foraging and hunting and fishing. There was so much that we had a cram in, in a short time.
 
Heather Sishco: So that was the interesting piece was really crash coursing, like the basic skills of surviving. But I'm gonna tell you they come pretty naturally once you're thrown into the woods, like you don't even realize how fast you learn when you need to eat. How fast you learn when it's cold, what do you know, things came together.
 
Emilio Navarro: John, also the 500,000 cash I mean for this race, that's a huge amount of money compared to some other ones. So that was motivating to for us too, you know, we’re on the fitness level, we can manage, let’s just get this other stuff. You know, figure it out a little bit. But when we get there, we'll figure it out. We'll roll with it. You know, we got a shou at 500,000. So that was a big motivating factor to really step it up.
 
John Betancourt: Now, this is a grueling challenge for certain, and I’m sure there were some tough, tough days, how did you both overcome the mental challenges present in this competition?
 
Heather Sishco: Yeah, so mental challenges, some days, you just had to, you had to fight with your partner, some days, your teammate that you love, is your family and your brother, you just have to look at them and be like, “You're being a dick,” because that's what I called them on the trailer. (Laughter from all) Well, you had to let it out. I think every single person on the show cried once or twice or eight times, or however many, because you just hit a wall. So mentally, you just had to keep telling yourself, like, there was no quitters on this show. I mean, everybody was just hardcore. And you just you just have that inner grind, and you say, not quitting. One step in front of the other bottom line, if you hit a wall, yell at your teammate, cry, scream, shout, hug a tree, whatever you got to do, do it and move forward. There we go.
 
Emilio Navarro: So, the mental challenge in a nutshell, I mean, we were all mentally tough, but it's when you, you don't expect something. Like when you're getting ready to put on all the gear to do rafting, to pack the raft, and you get a little bit of water. And before you know it, there is NO WATER, mentally, that is the worst feeling. Because you're psyched, you're ready to go, you know, 10 kilometers down the river and you're thinking, all of a sudden, it's like… it's the total 180. And when you've been out for days and days, that's just like backbreaking mental breaking. Yeah, you have to reset, reset and realize, “Okay, this is the next is the challenge we're faced with, let's forge forward.” But man, that can break a lot of people when you don't expect something like that, you know, in a race like this.
 
John Betancourt: Now obviously, we don’t want to spoil, but I am curious what the toughest moment in this race was for each of you. If you could pinpoint one.
 
Heather Sishco: I'll say it, being the city girl, and we had to leave our cell phones at home. Because you have nothing, you're out there with nothing. You’ve lost all communication with everybody in your world, your normal day. And that's something that weighs on you. Here you are in the middle of the woods for days and days and days with no food or lack of food, and tired and cranky. And that's a big challenge right there. Just to get up, put your backpack back on and continue on was a tough enough challenge.
 
Emilio Navarro: The terrain, I mean, we're in a in a place that we’re not familiar with. And you're, you know, on a map it looks like “Yeah, I know where to go.” But when you're in it, and it's all wilderness… you know… we were kind of cautious. We didn’t want to make a mistake; we didn't want to get lost. I mean, it's just so much of just tackling New Zealand, the terrain, I thought we would be able to run more and it's just, and also the pack. I mean, I didn't expect me carrying a 40 pound pack. Throughout this whole endeavor. I've never trained like that. I mean, I'm an ultra-marathoner, but not I'm not a hiker, I never trained with like a rock or anything like that. So, adding that extra 40 pounds, man it was it was tough with that terrain as well. Let me tell you they made sure that they were going to make this very, very hard compared to season one. I mean, this season is gonna blow away they went through in season one.
 
John Betancourt: No joke there, I did notice that food was a decision this time around instead of being provided right away. Which was wild to me, that you had to choose.
 
Heather Sishco: Different teams make different choices at different time, and it's fun. It's gonna be real fun to watch who picks what? What it does to them, it's interesting.
 
John Betancourt: I did see that early on, that the team slightly ahead of you skipped that food. Now, on the flip side of that question, what did you love the most about this competition?
 
Heather Sishco: God, it's a once in a lifetime experience. I mean, I loved being able to, I did things that I've just never done. Some of the other teams, they live in that West in the middle of mountains, that's their backyard. I'm a city girl. I saw peaks, and rivers and canyons and chasms, and did things I've never done in my life. So, it was definitely… I also love a challenge. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. As Emilio says on the show, actually on the trail, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And for me, that was the best part about it. I love a challenge. And that was the hands down hardest thing I've ever done.
 
Emilio Navarro: I loved that… we were fearful. I know fear tries to stop people from doing things and I was fearful of not being able to navigate, fearful of how we're going to eat. And to be able to just put that all aside and say, “You know what, we can do this, we got two good brains, you know, we're fit, we're healthy.” To come out of that, knowing that we did it like we actually survived was the biggest fulfilling piece to me. It's like a piece of the puzzle that said, “See that, Emilio? Any challenge that's before you, don't put preconceived notions, you know what, just go ahead and do it.” And you know, we got pretty good at shelter we got, you know, like so it was good to see the progress from someone from us that were never really, living that. And now I'm hooked you know, I'm started reading books on you know -- my next challenge is I want to go do the Pacific Coast Trail the PCT, you know, and I want to like, you know, now maybe ultra-running can take a little back a backseat and I can -- I got all the gear, I might as well take a couple of weeks, but I'm not scared now to take a two week backpacking experience with myself or a buddy or you know, and go out and, and just enjoy the wilderness because the peace that you get from being out there, just you, the land, the earth, everything is just nothing, nothing matches that you know, nothing. Nothing. You know, the feeling you get is incredible.
 
John Betancourt: What are you each most proud of when it comes your work on this show?
 
Heather Sishco: Hey, that I can go without a lot of calories because I love my food. I eat so much food every day. And I do, I eat, like overeat. I'm an overeater. And I was like, “Oh, I can go without food.” So that was one thing I learned.
 
Emilio Navarro: I was changed. I will say that, you know, when I saw the competition at first, at the start… I had a certain pre-conception of what I was looking at, like I already started, I had pre-judgments based on size, based on this or that. And when we were up against in this race, and I saw what these incredible people were doing. Totally blew my mind. Like I will never judge, whether you’re a petite female, skinny, lanky. I mean, like it doesn't matter. It's all about the heart. And these any athletes that were just incredible mental -- I mean, it's just… you can't judge a book by its cover and sometimes you know, we say that. But inside, when I saw what I saw I just shattered every pre-conceived notion I've have about judging anybody’s abilities just based on what I see on the outside.
 
Heather Sishco: Emilio is like very on the cocky side, and I was trying to humble him a little and it wasn't happening. And even day one when we met everybody, he's like, “Meh,” and then as you start racing, everybody, you're like, “wow,” so it was cool to actually watch Emilio be humbled.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.  

Isabel Arraiza is an accomplished star of the silver and small screen. Currently, she stars as Maria Olivares in the Prime Video series Outer Range, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with Isabel to discuss season two of the show.
 
John Betancourt: I would like to start off by knowing what it means to be part of such an ambitious show from a storytelling standpoint.
 
Isabel Arraiza: I mean, I just feel like it's a great gift. Are you kidding me, I got this job in the middle of COVID. And then they were like, “You're gonna be part of the Outer Range!” And I was like, and I knew Brian (Watkins), from acting school. So, I was already a big fan of his writing way before he wrote the show and created it. And I'm a huge fan of Lili Taylor, and Josh (Brolin), and Imogen (Poots). And so, I just feel incredibly fortunate to be alongside this group of incredibly talented people.
 
John Betancourt: So, this season has so much to it, which is just impressive. So much messaging, so many themes. I'm kind of curious as to what may be a central theme or themes you kind of hope the audience takes away from this season's journey?
 
Isabel Arraiza: I hope that some of the fans do feel like some of their theories of the first season are put to rest because they're finally going to be revealed. But I also know that we're going to leave them with more cliffhangers and that we've added some wrinkles into our story. So, it gets a little bit more convoluted, but hopefully, they're going to enjoy that. So, I think it's just going to be riveting, and heady and thought provoking, and just invigorating.
 
John Betancourt: Now from a more global standpoint, because this is also a big season of the big moments in general. We don't want to spoil those. But what are you excited for oddity to experience in general and season two?
 
Isabel Arraiza: Wow, honestly, I read the script, and I was blown away. It's like when some things were getting revealed. There's an episode, coming up, I'm really excited for. Mind you. I'm not in that episode. But I was just in awe. It's just such a good storyline for that character. And I'm excited for fans to see it. But I can't spoil it.
 
John Betancourt: Why do you think this show resonates so well with audiences?
 
Isabel Arraiza: I think it combines so many genres that people love in general, right. And I think we're at a time globally, where there's a sense of uncertainty. And so, I think people get obsessed with trying to find out what the answer is or what the future holds. So, I think that's one thing that's happening right now, just in this moment in time. But I also think, you know, it's, it's a wonderful show for sci fi lovers for Western lovers, because I think it combines those two worlds and creates this unique multi genre show that a lot of people can enjoy.
 
John Betancourt: What are you most proud of so far when it comes to your work on this show?
 
Isabel Arraiza: Honestly, learning and just getting better at the craft. I mean, every time I show up to set, I'm like, “Oh, no, no. What am I doing?” Which is normal for a lot of actors, but mind you, I trained for theater for so, so long. So, I mean, granted I've been doing film for seven years now, but I just feel like every time, I'm just growing and learning and just being alongside with Josh, who's also directing one of the episodes this season, it was just such a masterclass. So, I'm proud that I'm open to keep growing and receiving and learning from my peers. And hopefully you guys will enjoy it.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today. If you had to describe season two in a single word. What would that word be?
 
Isabel Arraiza: Hmm. I would say atmospheric. Hmm. I don't know… that's not even a good adjective for it. I'm like, suspenseful, but it just feels really generic to say that. I'm like, suspenseful… hopefully satisfying. Let's go with satisfying.
 
This interview has been lighted edited and condensed for clarity.

Shaun Sipos and Noah Reid are a pair of accomplished actors that have appeared in some popular franchises. Such as, Reacher and Schitt’s Creek, respectively. Currently, they star as Luke Tillerson and Billy Tillerson, respectively in the Prime Video series, Outer Range, and we here at NTG had the distinct honor of sitting down with both of them to discuss season two of the show!
 
John Betancourt: I’d like to know what it means to each of you, to be part of such an ambitious storytelling show.
 
Shaun Sipos: It's a real blessing, an absolute gift, that I have Brian Watkins to thank for hiring me, and Zev (Borow). And obviously Josh (Brolin) had, you know, a say in that as well. And then for them putting together such an amazing cast that, you know, to be part of something like this… where you have actors that, in my opinion, are some of the best in the business, and it just makes you better, just by being around them and doing scenes with them. And everyone, everyone brought their A-game always. So, I couldn't ask for anything more.
 
Noah Reid: Yeah, I mean, I would echo everything that that Sean said, this project from the very beginning, from the first, you know, the first couple of words that I read about of this show, I just knew that this was a project of a really high caliber, you know, Brian's writing and the world that he invited us all into… very special, very unique. And a total thrill to be a part of something so considered. The inner lives, the characters were so well drawn, so complex, and so strange and unique. And then, you know, to be able to fill that world out with the cast that he assembled, along with Zev and Josh, and everyone involved. Just, you know, we just, I think, all felt super lucky to be there. Season One was, you know, happening at a difficult time for the world. And we had to, we had innumerable challenges to deal with, with the pandemic that was taking place. But, you know, we managed to kind of come together as a group during that time and create something, I think, really special. And so, to have an opportunity to expand on that in season two was a total thrill. To get to be back with this, this group of artists was, was pretty remarkable.
 
John Betancourt: Noah, what are you hoping audiences take away from this season from a messaging standpoint
 
Noah Reid: The continual thing with this show is that the hole is this… it's more than just a hole, it represents this kind of hole in the American psyche, I think for me, and to do with, with our past and the land and our footprint on it, and our struggle to own some something so that we can, you know, matter. And I think that all of these characters are, are in one way or another dealing with a kind of a crisis of identity and “who am I?” kind of moment in the massive expanse of the world and the universe and time. And everyone is really, you know, as Will Patton said at one point, “making desperate attempts at transcendence.” And I think that's, that's the thing that we really continue in this season. Everyone's trying to get some resolution and the audience is included in that, you know, so yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes. I haven't seen it myself. So, I'm curious.
 
John Betancourt: Shaun, what are you most excited for audiences to experience this season, without any spoilers, of course?
 
Shaun Sipos: I think just the expounding on the mystery that they feel I mean, if you watch the trailer for the second season, it really sort of sets up that mystery and wonder that I think people have been craving you know, that they want the hole to expand. They want to see what's in it, they want to see where it goes. They want to see what it does to people, they want to see what it does the world around them, and they get a taste of that, a good taste of it. So hopefully everyone…  by the time that they finish watching the second season, they feel like maybe they've had a taste of that mineral themselves. And that, that if any of them watched sort of like a Twin Peaks type of thing that they got a bit of a taste of that as well. Which people seem to have been really craving.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Michael Connelly is a New York Times Bestselling Author that has captivated audiences everywhere with his thrilling detective and legal novels, several of which have been adapted into television shows on Prime Video, such as Bosch and Bosch: Legacy. His current project, however, is the Audible Original, The Safe Man, based upon a short story that Michael wrote, and that he co-wrote with Terrill Lee Lankford, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with Michael to discuss this incredible new adaptation of a story that means a great deal to him. 

John Betancourt: What inspired The Safe Man to begin with?
 
Michael Connelly: I'll try to be brief, but it's somewhat tied into something that happened to me. In this story, it's about a house that's built on an island that was dredged from a bay in Tampa Bay, and I lived in a house like that, around the year 2000, I moved into a house like that. And the house had, oddly had a safe that was built into the floor, and it was locked. And this was an old house even by Florida standards, it was an old house, it was something like almost 100 years old. And it just kind of scared me that we, you know, we did some renovations on the house, a lot of people had been in and out of that house, and they would look and see the safe and it was locked. And I just, I'm a storyteller. And my imagination kind of ran wild about what would happen if we had like an intruder who said, “open the safe.” And he's like holding a gun to my head or something. And I could not open the safe. So, I had it drilled, I had the safe, drilled and permanently left unlocked because I really didn't have use for a safe in the floor. And that just from there, it kind of made me think about a story like that. And from that came, I got this request to write a short story based on what I have, not based on, but that is not in the genre or in the lane that you're used to traveling. You know, I'm known for detective stories. So, I decided I'm going to write… I love Stephen King's books. And I’m gonna try and go into Stephen King's lane here for a minute, you know, I'm sure that won't be welcomed by the Stephen King people, but I'm gonna give it a shot. And with short stories, you can really experiment, do whatever you want to do. And so, I wrote The Safe Man.
 
And then I was very happy with that story. And I always thought it had legs. In other words that could be delivered in another way if I ever got the opportunity. And so then, you know, many years go by I think I wrote that more than 10 or 15 years ago. And one of the people that work for me and my company on the television side, along with my fresh from film school daughter said like, “we want to try to make something out of that story,” because my daughter was really into that kind of storytelling. And so, we decided to make an audio drama out of it. Because again, I'm not known for this kind of stuff. So, it's not like I could walk into Hollywood and say, “Hey, how about making a TV show about this ghost story I wrote.” And so, we went to the audio drama route, I have a relationship with Audible from doing a true crime podcast with them a couple of years ago. And that was a great experience. And you know, I know Audible is the platform, if you want to do something like this. This is the place to take it to and having already been in a partnership with them. It was kind of a no brainer. So, here we are.
 
John Betancourt: What kinds of challenges came forth in expanding such a concise story into something so grand in scope?
 
Michael Connelly: Well, I mean, you got to keep in mind that, first of all, the as you said, the short story was concise, and it… It had to go further. And as I said before, I've always thought this story could go further. So maybe about 10 years ago, a friend of mine who's a writer as well, Terrill Lee Lankford. He liked the story as well. So, we wrote a screenplay and never did anything with it. I mean, I can't say it was rejected all over town because no one ever saw it. It just didn't -- it almost felt like an exercise. And we said we'd come back to it and make it better. And then when Theresa Snyder and Callie Connelly came and said, “this, this could be something that could be an audio drama.” I got it right away, and it still needed expanding even from that screenplay. And so, it's a different kind of storytelling. You know, it's serialized storytelling and so you're at you're very aware of needing many cliffhangers. Big cliffhangers, scares, sound design is the most important part of this. You know, we at first, it was the idea was that Titus Welliver, who I have relationship with from the Amazon Prime TV show, would direct this but we then we realized we needed sound design to be so important that we brought in Mark Philips as a co-director, I did the expanding of the, what was a movie script into an eight part series. And it kind of went from there. It all kind of fell in really, really quickly and really well, once we decided let's do this.
 
John Betancourt: Now since you’ve mentioned that this story had legs, is this is a story that you always wanted to revisit and wanted to really build into something this riveting? Or was it just an opportunity that presented itself.
 
Michael Connelly: That's a little bit of both. And by the way, thanks for using that word riveting. You know, if you have one word that you want to have said about a story like this, that's it. I mean, because you're really in the story delivery business of making people want to keep going, you know “what happens next” that that's the key to storytelling on any level. So, it seems to have worked with you. And that's great. But it was the one ghost story I've ever written. And now I want to write more, I want to write a sequel to this. But I mean, yeah, it's always been there as like, “Hey, that was a good story.” And yes, it was in a collection of short stories. But that's probably the smallest, you know, audience that you could have for something you've written. And, you know, I want to hit all the bases as a storyteller, you know, I wanted to hit an audio drama, I have some TV shows, I've had some movies, I write books, it all starts with books. But you know, I want to hit every, every way of delivering storytelling, because it's just fun to do things that are new. And so, this was like the perfect project to kinda, to find that script. And in fact, I had to do a little detective story, to even find a script, because I kept finding different levels of unfinished work.
 
And, and finally, I had to go to Terrill Lee Lankford, my co-writer on it, to find the last best version of this and then we then I took it and expanded it from there. But you know, it's tough, you know, this, I'll be honest, we saw this as an opportunity that if this does well, and that's where I come back to riveting. If this is riveting, and it does well on audio, then on Audible, then, you know, Audible is part of the synchronicity of storytelling in our, in our world right now, they have another delivery system that is huge, called Amazon Prime. And this could be, I don't want to say like a backdoor in, but this could be a way in to taking this story to another level and have it, you know, made into a television show. And so those things are all of mind, as you're going down this path, but you know, you got to pay attention and be really focused on the the step you are on, on that path. And so, you have to make the best, most riveting story you can make. As far as an audio drama goes before anything else would even be considered. So, you know, you got to keep your eyes on the ball as it bounces down the path.
 
John Betancourt: Now something that was a delightful surprise, was the sheer fact that this story is grounded in some deep fears about parenthood and fears regarding the safety of our children. What went into the decision to add that into the story?
 
Michael Connelly: I mean, you're right, I mean, it's like, you know, I'm a parent of one child. I came from a huge family where I had six brothers and sisters. And so, I went to the opposite path. But I realized that when you only have one kid, you have more worries, you know, you got one child. And so, there's, you know, this might be bad to say, but I'm kind of tapping into the fears of, of all parents. And you know, that's a universal thing. That's what you see. And Stephen King, who's one of the inspirations for this kind of storytelling for me, and they're the masters, that, that do that so well. And I just wanted to take that as a starting point, but then get into these larger questions that I never get into on my detective stories, where my legal thrillers are just not a place for that. But it's not like, I'm only one dimensional that I think about crime or something I think about, you know, like everyone does, where do we come from and where do we end up going? And so, this idea of the different realms of the eternal and the mortal realms and what passes in between, you know, it's just, to me it was just so delicious to delve into I'm, you know, I'm 67 years old. And I've created a reputation or whatever you want to call it for being the guy who writes the legal thrillers and the detective novels. But you know, at the end of the day, there are larger questions that I like to think about. And this became a way for me to explore that.
 
John Betancourt: What does it mean for you, for this story to have the legs and longevity it does.
 
Michael Connelly: Well, it's, you know, as a guy who does this for a living, it's pretty fantastic to know that something I wrote a long time ago, I don't want to say it was a throwaway. But as I think I said before short stories, they have a very limited audience. And to think that was one of my better ideas. And it's been sitting in a book that not many people saw a long time ago, let's give it new life. And maybe there could be something that, that leads to something else, you know, can lead to television, or can lead to a sequel. And these are all things that you know, it's like your stories are your children. And you know, if you get if you get a chance to see them grow up and do something different, it's really enticing and fulfilling when it happens. I mean, I love, I love this, I am so proud of what we were able to accomplish. And you know, I'm gonna get the credit for it. You're interviewing me, you're not interviewing Mark Phillips, who did the sound design, which is just I think, you know, without it, you wouldn't be using the word riveting. I'll tell you that. I mean, what he did on this was really cool.
 
John Betancourt: So, with it being out, what are you most excited for audiences to experience when they tune in, without spoilers of course.
 
Michael Connelly: Well, I mean, obviously It's like when you put out a book or a TV show, you want to see what the reaction is, and you hope a lot of people hear about it and get to it. And so, my big hope is that, again, this is a different way of delivering a story for me. So, it's a brave new world. Here I am, you know, almost 40 years into my career as a storyteller, but I haven't done this before. So, it's kind of the most exciting thing going for me at the moment.
 
John Betancourt: What did you enjoy the most about putting all of this together?
 
Michael Connelly: The end result. I mean, you know, I have this experience in a lot of ways. You know, I've sitting I'm sitting at a desk where I write most of my stuff. I got James M. Cain right there, you're probably wondering, who is that guy looking over my shoulder? And I got a Raymond Chandler. So, you know, this is my storytelling headquarters. And to see something, take it on its own life, you know, that goes out there. And as I say, I'm really excited about this new dimension of storytelling that I'm involved in now through Audible. And you know, I'm one of the best platforms to be doing that. So, the thing that that I liked, I like most about doing this, is when I see the end result of whether people jump on this and enjoy it, and we get feedback. I mean, that's, you know, you're talking to a guy -- any guy who writes books and makes TV shows has a pretty big creative ego who thinks that they're storytellers that should be seen by the masses heard by the masses. This is that point, where I want to see if people want to hear this story.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes this particular iteration of this project?
 
Michael Connelly: Well, you brought up parenting and so forth. You know, my daughter is a young person who was just fresh out of film school when she came to me and said, “Let's do this.” So, I'm really proud of what we have, how this took this step from being a short story, to being something that a lot of people are gonna get to listen to. And so that's what has been most interesting to me, to work with her on this. I mean, she's worked in the business now for few years. And I know she's good at what she does. And it's a different kind of storytelling than her old man is known for. But it's something I'm really proud of.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

D.J. Caruso is a highly accomplished Director and Writer, and an outright baseball fan. Which is why his current project is of note. For D.J. stepped behind the camera to helm the docu-series, Bronx Zoo ’90: Crime, Chaos and Baseball, on Peacock, which chronicles the wild story of the 1990 New York Yankees, and we here at NTG had the honor of sitting down with D.J. to discuss this ambitious documentary.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious what inspired you want to step behind the camera to shepherd through and tell this tale?
 
D.J. Caruso: Well, you know, when I read Joel Sherman’s journals and articles in the New York Post, I was just sort of compelled by the you know, there's a lot of things that you don't know about – you know, I know about the Yankees and the dynasty and how unbelievably successful they are as a franchise. I remember 1990, sort of, I remember Steinbrenner getting kicked out of baseball. But when I started to read this, there's so many great human stories in there, you know, some horrible things happened. But it just felt to me that there was this great, great template for, you know, in order to succeed, and in order to survive, you have to go through a lot of dark times. And so, the Yankees went through a lot of dark times in 1990. And they came out somehow stronger for it at the end. So that sort of theme and that parallel of me just loving baseball and loving sports. And also, I also felt like growing up in and around New York City, George Steinbrenner, when I was growing up, was a huge celebrity. Like, he was the first celebrity owner, and he was sort of like, Donald Trump before there was Donald Trump, right? And I thought, nobody's really ever dealt with that recently, you know, whether you're a Yankee fan or anybody else, he's such a compelling character, and he's flawed. He's loved, he's hated, and his behavior at times is reprehensible. And at times, he does things that are so human, and so kind, I just felt like there was a great tapestry to go in there and tell a story as a filmmaker and get behind it.
 
John Betancourt: Now as a fan of baseball, what did it mean to you now to be able to tell this essentially definitive story of the 1990 Yankees?
 
D.J. Caruso: Well, I do think baseball parallels life. You know, in baseball, if you succeed one out of three times, you're like a superstar. So that means you're great 33% of the time, right? And I think that's kind of like life. In life, if we can succeed 33% of the time, I think we'll be doing okay. So, there's a real parallel between baseball being a difficult sport, and life being difficult, right. So, I thought it was really nice to kind of get in there. And then also, there's beautiful moments in the documentary where someone like Kevin Moss comes in and gets a chance. And he has 10 minutes of fame where everyone in the city is enamored by this guy, even though the team is awful, there's this one thing. So, there's always that bit of hope. And so, I think baseball is always about the hope of hitting and the hope of doing something. So that was very compelling on that end, and then, you know, who knew that Deion Sanders was a Yankee in 1990, right? Like the Deion that we know. And so, it's sort of like all that stuff was sort of forgotten. So, I felt like for a baseball fan, it'd be great to just sort of get in there, cover the sport that I love so much, but also to tell stories that you sort of think you think you know about this story, but you really don't know what the truth is behind it.
 
John Betancourt: What kind of challenges went into assembling this amazingly broad and sweeping documentary?
 
D.J. Caruso: Well, the biggest challenge, the biggest challenge is it was 1990. And a lot of the stuff we're getting is 1980s. And so, it's like, you know, I always… like The Last Dance was a great, great documentary, but they were so fortunate that someone documented that entire season and had cameras in the locker room and all that. S,o they have all this great footage. And Peter Jackson got to do, you know, the Get Back documentary, and someone recorded the Beatles writing “Let it Be” so like, wow, we had to start from scratch. Like, there was not a lot a lot of stuff. There wasn't any filmmaker following them around, back then, believe it or not in 1990, it was all print media. You know the baseball coverage was more print media. And then there was one national game a week on Saturday on NBC, you get one baseball game a week on Saturday, if not, you have to watch the Yankees on channel 11. And the Mets on channel 9. So, it was really difficult to find people, find some of the old footage that we needed to find. And so, it was really like, it was research intensive, like we had a really good research team. And then also, you know, finding people that were still alive. Like there could have been a lawyer in certain cases. They were older. So, it was it was interesting. And then who remembers what. So, it was really it was an extensive research project. And it's the first time I've ever done sort of a documentary or docu-series. So, it was really interesting. It's almost like you're, you're almost like a college student writing a thesis and you want to hope that when you start to do these interviews that some of these things line up and support your thesis.
 
John Betancourt: How long was the research phase to get all this information assembled?
 
D.J. Caruso: Oh, it was over a year and a half, like, you know, while we're doing it, we line up an interview, but then we have to go, “Great. Well, how do we find out about Dave Winfield? And how do we find out about the book that he wrote?” So, then we go, “Great.” And then you'd go down this avenue, and you realize, “Oh, that person is no longer with us. Great. So, who can we talk to?” And you know, “I want to talk to Fay Vincent but Fay’s older and doesn't want to go on camera” and certain things. “Okay, who is Fay’s number two person? Let's see if we can find him. He's in Florida. He's retired,” you know, so all those things. So, it just was an ongoing process of, of finding stuff and getting things together. So, you know, if it was difficult, but we had a really good team, a really good team.
 
John Betancourt: Now. I'm curious, was there anybody that was reticent to discuss anything that happened that season? Or was it pretty much an open book for those that did participate?
 
D.J. Caruso: The ones that participated, it was pretty good, it was really good, you know, they were kind of an open book, like the one person I really wanted to get, who didn't want to speak at all, because he doesn't want to go down this road at all, was Dave Winfield, because I felt like Dave would have been a great, a great person to talk to and get his perspective on what was happening. But it's interesting, you know, I think, to bring up something in 1990, that was not great for him, it just didn't seem like, he just didn't want to go there. You know, and I understand that, I respect that. But you know, everyone, was very pretty open talking about what they needed to talk about. And, you know, again, culturally, things were a little different in 1990. So, you know, particularly in the Mel Hall situation, they were all kind of like, “Well, it was weird, because her parents were there. And we just felt like everything was complicit, like, we didn't know.” And so, it's like, so it was just a different time, but everyone was really open. And I think again, they also look back in retrospect and realize, like, if it didn't get this bad in 1990, then we wouldn't be the championship team that we became.
 
John Betancourt: How many people declined to speak about the season?
 
D.J. Caruso: Oh, interview wise, I think maybe not that many, maybe three or four people declined.
 
John Betancourt: Wow. That's really impressive. People really wanted to talk about it.
 
D.J. Caruso: Yeah. People want to talk about it. You know, I think there's certain things you know, particular people and stuff, but yeah, I think maybe three or four people declined. It wasn't that many.
 
John Betancourt: Now, I knew nothing about the whole Mel Hall incident, and I was just stunned by that entire segment. How uncomfortable ws it to put that piece together? Because that's a pretty wild subject matter.
 
D.J. Caruso: Well, I think there's a little bit of, there's an aspect of being uncomfortable, but there's also the aspect of telling the story, right? So that lik, particularly like, you know, from Chaz’s perspective, and Chaz Easterly is an amazing woman, how to how to sort of earn her trust so that you can kind of get the story, take it in, how did this all happen? How did it get to your house? And you know, you just wanted to get a baseball signed in the mail, and how did he get your phone number? It's like, all of these things. So, there's a respect and a reverence you want to give her because of this. And then, you know, interviewing Mel in prison, it's, it's, it's uncomfortable, like, I'm not like a true crime guy who does this, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it was sort of like the whole idea that he was just a number. And he was Melvin Hall, Jr. and he was 106… inmate, one of the guys in Texas didn't know that he was a baseball player, they had no idea, right? Because he's just, that's Mel, he's an inmate, right? He's an inmate, he's going to be here forever. And so it was, it was interesting, but like I said, there was a little bit of uncomfortableness, but at the time, it was also just like, trying to be respectful and tell the story in a right way. Because I do think that Chaz’s and Mel’s story, particularly Chaz’s aspect of the story is someone who came out on the other side and came out stronger the way the Yankees did, like, they went through all this and they came out stronger. So, to me, as a filmmaker, I really liked that those arcs and those paths of those stories were, were sort of linked.
 
John Betancourt: Now as you mentioned, there's so much to dive into so much that was documented differently than it was now. What did you learn from this journey that you didn't know before?
 
D.J. Caruso: I think what I learned is that if you look at anything enough, and you know, a baseball season, and you look at the different personalities, I mean, a baseball team is like a family, right? It's sort of like, you have the well-behaved son in Don Mattingly who's doing everything, right, who gets hurt, and he hurts his back. You have the superstar athlete who's doing both things. And I think at the end of the day, what I really learned was that like the human aspect of, of behavior, and baseball, there's a real parallel between those two things. But the thing I got most out of it, was the idea of no matter how dark things can get, that if you really take your time and heal, you can come out stronger. So, I think that was probably what I wanted the documentary to be. And then not to my surprise, but I was so pleased that what it ended up being.
 
John Betancourt: Why do you think now is the right time to tell this story?
 
D.J. Caruso: I think now's the right time to tell the story because we're out of, you know, we're near to outside of this pandemic. And we've come out a little bit stronger. And like you want to kind of get back and you realize like, the tabloid journalism of Steinbrenner, and Winfield and how it was sort of ahead of its time, and how the New York media sort of almost mirrors like in a microcosm, it almost mirrors the way like social media is today. But in New York, it's like the way that all this news passed through and the stories of the reporters, going to the newspaper, and from the newspaper it went to the local TV station, local TV station to maybe ESPN. And so, it was sort of like in that pocket. It was something that I thought was incredibly fascinating. And fascinating in that way. So I think that's sort of why, and then any human story, right? Someone who's been through hell and come out stronger, someone who's made a lot of mistakes, who's going to pay for those mistakes and the human aspects and the human stories and Steinbrenner you know, it's just like, there's a love hate between someone like that, who's so passionate and wants to win it all, causes like, you know, you'll find Yankee fans… there’s a love-hate, there's no middle ground. And so, you know, even he had his heart pierced when he saw the fans cheering when he got kicked out of baseball, right? You love this town; you love the city. And all of a sudden, you realize like everyone is on their feet cheering, giving a standing ovation, because you're no longer going to be involved in the team that you love. So even there's like, you know, there's, there's that pain of making the mistake, of then maybe coming back and being a better person. So, there's a universality in all of this, whether you like baseball or not, you're going to find a character or story in here that's going to be fascinating to you.
 
John Betancourt: Now, I hear some serious passion in your voice when you talk about the sport, what is it that you genuinely love so much about baseball?
 
D.J. Caruso: It's funny because I played tennis in college. But I have three sons that are all playing, two that played Division One baseball, and one that's about to play Division One baseball, so from the Little League on you know, and in seeing baseball, I really have a love for baseball and sort of what it represents, particularly here in America and how it's sort of an American sport. And so how regional, like you know, whether you're a Yankee fan or a Met fan, or you're a Rockies fan, how you sort of adopt these players and you adopt them, and they become part of your family. Right. And so, I think there's something I love about that, like I'm, I grew up a Met fan. So here I am, like Tom Seaver is still my hero. And he was my hero, and the Mets and all these things. So, I think there's sort of like, I love, I love the fact that baseball becomes like, your baseball team becomes your extended family. And you feel like you get to know them. Because guess what, in baseball, you're playing 162 games a year. It's not like football, where there's one game a week and you get to see your guy, and he goes, with baseball, like every you can almost count on every day. From you know, April to September, you can turn on the TV and see your friend playing baseball, like it's all part of your family.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, we talked a bit about what you kind of hope audiences universally take away from this and the inspiration in that story. But there's gonna be a lot of sports fans that gravitate to this particular piece and I’m curious what you hope sports fans take away from this documentary?
 
D.J. Caruso: I think sports fans -- I want sports fans to kind of take away things that maybe they didn't know about the Yankees and you get to see the dynamic between an owner you know, an owner who signs you know, he gets… George Steinbrenner comes in, he has Reggie Jackson, who's the hero of all heroes in the 70s they win these World Series. He then goes out and buys the greatest player in baseball, Dave Winfield, to replace him. And the day that he signs Dave Winfield and realizes his contract was not what he expected, he wants to divorce him, so he married Dave Winfield and wants to divorce on the same day. So, if you're a baseball fan, you have to realize that they went through 10 years of that drama. You get to see Deion Sanders play against Bo Jackson an amazing experience and amazing game you get to see someone throw a no hitter, and lose, which is something you'll never ever see. Right. And so, for a baseball fan, and then the Kevin Moss experience, the Kevin Moss of it all, of a guy who came in and had his 10 minutes of fame in the city went crazy for him and all that stuff. So that's great. And then you get to see a guy like Don Mattingly, one of the important things to me like Don Mattingly never made the World Series as great as the Yankees would be, such a great Yankee, that he never made the World Series, but he does have this… there's a really emotional moment for me at the end. When Don gets up and he has that one graded bat in the playoffs, and he hits home run and the stadium… is just rocking right? So, if you love baseball, there's a lot of goosebump moments that's in here for you. And then like I said, if you're not a full-on baseball fan, there's great human stories in here that you're going to find captivating,
 
John Betancourt: Since this is the definitive story of this wild season, what do you hope the legacy of this docu-series is going to be?
 
D.J. Caruso: I hope the legacy of the docu-series is what we talked about before is like, man, it was awful. It was terrible. But if you kind of keep persevering and coming out, you can see and, and there's a bittersweet aspect to it like Buck Showalter. And I think this way, life is like, you kind of, you don't really get credit for things you do, always, but you kind of know that you were part of it. And I think there's a bittersweet aspect of that I want people to get out of it and say, like, “Hey, I was part of this. I was part of this resurgence. I was part of this disaster. But somehow again, we came out and we worked, we came out stronger,” like Don Mattingly, Buck Showalter, Gene Michael, who even orchestrated building this team. They weren't around when the Yankees won the World Series, because the way Steinbrenner was. So, I think in life, it's all, there's a universality in all of us trying to do the best we can and not always getting credit. So, you'll see a lot of that in this documentary. But in the end, I just want people to know, like, you know, the Phoenix can rise from the ashes and you can rise and you can come out stronger, and a lot of bad things can happen to you like they did to the 1990 Yankees, but in the end, if you if you persevere, you can be okay.
 
John Betancourt: Now I’d be remiss to not ask this, but as a fan… man… what did you enjoy the most about getting to talk to some real legends, like Don Mattingly?
 
D.J. Caruso: Like… there was a reverence to just interviewing Don Mattingly, to sit down with Don Mattingly because, you know, growing up and, you know, my friends who were real big Yankee fans had their Hitman poster in their room and all that stuff. And I, you know, I just always thought Don was the guy who came into work and did his job and kept his mouth quiet until Steinbrenner provoked him. So, I really, I really enjoyed that part of interviewing him. And then again, I think I mentioned this to you, like I was, I was fascinated. I almost feel like you can make a movie just about these. But like, the beat reporters, these young people the Michael Kay's, the Joel Sherman’s, Suzyn Waldman, who was also assigned to the Yankees. They were like… anything that you learned came through these reporters. Like, it wasn't anything. It was all pen and paper and notebook. And when Dave Winfield, imagine today, you know, Juan Soto, the biggest Yankee, you know, the signing, they spent a fortune on him. If the Yankees decided today, they were going to trade Juan Soto and have a press conference. Okay, that would be seen by a billion people in less than five minutes, right? They would literally go all over the world. So, when they decided, they were going to trade Dave Winfield and make the announcement in Seattle. There were six reporters, there with notebooks. Yeah, there were no cameras, there was no anything. And so, the timing is so… the power of the beat reporter like the journalistic integrity and the journalistic, insular way that they got in with the team was something that was that wow, this is really fascinating. Like, it could be this could be its own a movie in itself, you know. And so, I thought that was fascinating.
 
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today. What are you most proud of when it comes to what you've assembled here?
 
D.J. Caruso: I'm most proud of just the team and the research team. And it's such a collaborative effort, a documentary a docu-series, it's a collaborative effort. And, yes, you're the filmmaker and all that. But I was so pleased with the collaborative effort of the team and digging up footage and finding things that we could do. And you know, there's, a lot of stories in here that maybe baseball doesn't want you to tell or hear and talk about. But you know, just the fact that we collaboratively all went to do this. And two of the biggest researchers that are producers on this research project were my sons. Because during COVID, we started to read these articles. And once we knew we were gonna get involved, they just went into this deep dive. So, it was a great family effort to work with both of my boys on this. And they both were baseball players in Division One and they both love baseball. So, for me, it was an incredible experience to work with my two sons on something that you know… is gonna live forever. So, I'm proud of that. That's pretty awesome.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.