We’re not done yet with coverage regarding the epic season finale of You Would Do It Too (Tú También lo Harías) on Apple TV+. Simply because that twist was one for the ages, and who better to speak to regarding it, than the man who chose to become the Justice, than Pablo Molinero, the actor who plays Fran on the show.
 
John Betancourt: I would like to start by getting to know what it was that attracted you to the role of Fran in the first place.
 
Pablo Molinero:  So not to reveal too much about the character, but I really found his journey interesting, extremely interesting. It really gets you thinking how one person can really change their mindset and perspective about things, about truth and justice, when life gives you the adequate circumstances to do so.
 
John Betancourt: I'm also very curious, because every actor in this story has just such depth to the character that they play, and that's a testament to your work, because you created someone that's very real. And I'm curious how you made Fran feel so real as an actor.
 
Pablo Molinero: I think just David Victori’s way of working, his methodology really facilitated creating all this… new reality, what he wanted was to make the scenes really dynamic and to pick up momentum. So, we didn't shoot with a lot of cuts. We actually shot as if they were sequences, even if they were edited afterwards. For us, for the actors, we just didn't stop rolling. We acted as if we were in theater when it all really has this flow.
 
John Betancourt: So, I have to ask, if you were aware of the twist in advance.
 
Pablo Molinero: So, I knew, but the others didn't. For example, I knew that there were going to be eight episodes, and I knew what the finale was going to be, but my co-actors like Anna Polvorosa and Ana Wagener, who played the chief, they didn't know. They didn't know that what the last episode was going to be, and they were shooting without actually knowing what the end was going to be. They found out while they were watching something on television in one of the scenes, and they saw my character appear.
 
John Betancourt: Then as a follow up into my question about building the character. How did knowing the twist in advance help you build and flesh out Fran?
 
Pablo Molinero: So, what happened to Fran actually, is what happens to many of us as we go through life, and we come across a crisis. For a person who is very rational and very organized and has this very structured way of thinking, they experience a full loss of control, so they no longer really know what their life is. They don't know what being a cop is. They lose sight of the fact that they're working to serve others and in the benefit of truth and justice. And Fran experiences a full change in his personality. He becomes chaotic. So, it's not really that I thought what this was going to be like. I actually had to experience and live through this crisis. So that's not something that you think through, and you that you think out, but you actually live it.
 
John Betancourt: That is very insightful, and obviously this is a very, very intelligent show. It has a lot to say about choices we make. Great example is Fran’s journey. And I'm curious what you kind of hope from a message standpoint audiences take away from this season.
 
Pablo Molinero: With so many twists and turns, I don't think that… well... I don't have an intention myself, and I don't think that the writers had an intention of either in providing a message or an answer, but rather to really get us to question our role in what society is like now. What is truth? What are all these truths, especially in this time when we see fake news, how easy is it to manipulate truth? Do we each have our own truth as individuals? How does the media interfere in creating this truth? So, if anyone comes out with lots of questions, I'll be quite satisfied.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of with what you accomplished here?
 
Pablo Molinero: Well, I could say that we had this one day when we were shooting, and it was called -- the whole day was called the opera. It was just shooting straight from the attack on the bus to the cops arriving, to the interrogations, to transferring to the police station, to the prison, and these were all sequences that were shot together. It was nonstop from when they yelled action to when they yelled cut. It was two hours, which included the transfers from like the scene of the crime to the police station, when we must have shot straight through about 200 pages of the script. So, it was almost theatrical, as I was saying, and just the show must go on. So, it was really nonstop. It was a full trip.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

It is definitely safe to say, that the season one finale of the incredible Apple TV+ series, You Would Do It Too (Tú También lo Harías), has left us with a lot to process. Courtesy of that epic twist involving Fran and well, to properly process such matters, we sat down with series co-creator, writer and executive producer, David Victory to discuss that ending and more.  
​
John Betancourt: I would love to start by getting to know what it means to you now, to have the first season of this incredible story out into the world.
 
David Victori: I'm super excited. I mean, as we talked the first time, I was really excited about, you know, it was taking forever for me. You know, one episode each week. It was, for me like, “Oh, my God, still. They are still in the third or the fourth episode. I can’t believe it.” I was really excited. I was shooting another project during this time, but I was keeping an eye of what, what was going on and you know, I have a group chat with the actors and some of the crew. And we was talking about, you know, the reactions, really excited about how people in many countries were enjoying the series. So, so, yeah, I'm happy.
 
John Betancourt: As you should be. What a finale that was, and a twist that I just did not see coming in the slightest and speaking of that, let's talk about a second. When did you and your co-writer decide upon taking Fran down that crazy path?
 
David Victori: It's a really good question, man, I remember really clear the day that we decided about this ending, and I was working not just with a writer that day, I remember that we had a meeting with a friend of mine who is an expert of a psychological tool that I use for my project that is called Enneagram, and we was kind of working so hard on the design of every and each character. And I remember that we was talking really deep on the character of Fran, and we was talking about all the arcs that these kind of people, the people that has this character, can go around and how, how people like this can change. And it was really interesting when he said, the people who normally don't take action and is more passive, sometimes, when they take action, they are really crazy about the decision that they make. Suddenly, going around these ideas, suddenly we were like, what about if he really goes crazy?
 
And, you know, and he just decided to go for his own sense of justice, and don't care about whatever this means as a human being. And we suddenly had the idea, and we go wild, we start to laugh, like, kind of nervous, laughing like, “Oh my God, no, no, no, no, we cannot do that. We cannot do that. That's wild, that's crazy.” And it's like, yeah, man, but you don't see that coming, you know? And the exciting thing is that make a lot of sense for the design of the character. So that's what we are proud of that because as crazy as it seems makes sense for the arc of the character. And, yeah, this is why we did it, and we're kind of brave about that, and we and we did it, and I think that is savage and crazy and wild.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious, how early did you guys decide upon the twist as well? Because clearly, as I was thinking about this and going through all the stories before our interview, You start seeing it build. You start seeing it build. So, hi, yeah. When did you guys really kind of hit that inspiration point to start work on the twist.
 
David Victori: I mean, so we wrote all the episodes from the beginning. So we, when we enter in production, we had the, you know, the last draft of every and each episode ready so we have super clear about every detail that we want to build up and in a way, you know, what happened with this character is, in a way, he… so, what is interesting about the project is that if every part of society stop doing or stop trying to do the correct thing, because it's complex… uh, I think that that will never have a good end, you know. I think that what we was talking a lot about this series, is that, in a way, is like society is like a teenager right now, you know, like, it's like a teenager who cannot hold complex subjects.
 
You know, everything that happens in society, we react in a really simple way, like, like, “Okay, who is the bad people? Who is the good people, who are the heroes, who are the villains?” And I think that this relationship with reality is really poor and really sad, because it is not how it is, because in our personal life, everything is complex. You know, it's not just -- things are not simple. So, coming back to the question, when we build that with this character, we try to, kind of like make him go through all the way feeling this kind of disappointment with everything that happened. So, at the end, he feel alone and he feel completely disconnected, in order to, in some moment, he can do anything, and it's okay, you know?
 
John Betancourt: That's great. That's brilliant, and what a good point on society being so immature at this point. Now obviously, I hear you're passionate about this. We talked about the passion before. What did you enjoy the most about putting together this wonderful first season?
 
David Victori: Look the other day, I just shoot another project with the same DOP and part of the same team and we were talking the other day, and he said something really interesting. He said, “in Tú También lo Harías, everything works in a really magical way.” He said, “suddenly we had the ingredients to make the perfect cocktail,” you know? And it's true that when I remember the shooting of this project, the editing and the writing, it was really magical. I think that we choose really well, the team, we choose really well, the actors, the synergy with all the actors, it was amazing. It was something magical and something really, really strange that happened that doesn’t always happen, John, that is, I had completely creative freedom, and that was amazing. That was a dream come true. So, I remember that expression of freedom, creative freedom. And when I was in that process, I remember being aware of that and understanding that that was something that I have to be really grateful about, because it's not always like this, yeah, so I earned that as much with as much responsibility as possible, you know? So, so, yeah, I remember, my memories, about this project is they're really special.
 
John Betancourt: Keeping in that line of thinking, what does it mean to you to have created something so refreshing and so original?
 
David Victori: It's, it's my goal from the beginning, you know, I try to make movies that I will enjoy as an audience, you know, and I don't know… I think that I'm not particularly smart. So, I need something when I watch movies or a series. I need something that really grabs my attention so really quick, but then I don't want, I don't want movies or stories that don't go deep, you know. So, if I put my time in some story, I want that person or that crew or that team, to bring me somewhere that I cannot reach for myself, right? So, if you choose my series, I want the journey to make sense. And you know, because I really value the time that people can put in my stories. I think that is the most precious gift that someone can give you is their time. So, when somebody give me that, I want to use that in a really entertaining way, but at the same time, you know, try to give that person a point of view of reality that sometimes maybe he cannot see, or she cannot see for themselves.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of when with what you've assembled here?
 
David Victori: I think that the energy that the story has. Because I think that we shot the project in a way that we try to bring something really organic and authentic. And I feel that is in the result. And you can see that has this kind of like characters that you feel, you feel something real on what you are watching, it's really, in a way, that you feel that something was happening there, and really was happening. I mean, what I don't want is that I don't want to put the camera in something that is dead. I want the camera to put in something that is alive. And in order to shoot something that is alive, when we are living this, when we are shooting this, has to be alive, because, if not, you know, it's just too mental, you know, too intellectual. And I think that we did a lot of efforts to try to do that during the shooting. And I think that we catch that and it's what we offer to the people who want to enjoy the show.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.
It is definitely safe to say, that the season one finale of the incredible Apple TV+ series, You Would Do It Too (Tú También lo Harías), has left us with a lot to process. Courtesy of that epic twist involving Fran and well, to properly process such matters, we sat down with series co-creator, writer and executive producer, David Victory to discuss that ending and more.  
John Betancourt: I would love to start by getting to know what it means to you now, to have the first season of this incredible story out into the world.
 
David Victori: I'm super excited. I mean, as we talked the first time, I was really excited about, you know, it was taking forever for me. You know, one episode each week. It was, for me like, “Oh, my God, still. They are still in the third or the fourth episode. I can’t believe it.” I was really excited. I was shooting another project during this time, but I was keeping an eye of what, what was going on and you know, I have a group chat with the actors and some of the crew. And we was talking about, you know, the reactions, really excited about how people in many countries were enjoying the series. So, so, yeah, I'm happy.
 
John Betancourt: As you should be. What a finale that was, and a twist that I just did not see coming in the slightest and speaking of that, let's talk about a second. When did you and your co-writer decide upon taking Fran down that crazy path?
 
David Victori: It's a really good question, man, I remember really clear the day that we decided about this ending, and I was working not just with a writer that day, I remember that we had a meeting with a friend of mine who is an expert of a psychological tool that I use for my project that is called Enneagram, and we was kind of working so hard on the design of every and each character. And I remember that we was talking really deep on the character of Fran, and we was talking about all the arcs that these kind of people, the people that has this character, can go around and how, how people like this can change. And it was really interesting when he said, the people who normally don't take action and is more passive, sometimes, when they take action, they are really crazy about the decision that they make. Suddenly, going around these ideas, suddenly we were like, what about if he really goes crazy?
 
And, you know, and he just decided to go for his own sense of justice, and don't care about whatever this means as a human being. And we suddenly had the idea, and we go wild, we start to laugh, like, kind of nervous, laughing like, “Oh my God, no, no, no, no, we cannot do that. We cannot do that. That's wild, that's crazy.” And it's like, yeah, man, but you don't see that coming, you know? And the exciting thing is that make a lot of sense for the design of the character. So that's what we are proud of that because as crazy as it seems makes sense for the arc of the character. And, yeah, this is why we did it, and we're kind of brave about that, and we and we did it, and I think that is savage and crazy and wild.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious, how early did you guys decide upon the twist as well? Because clearly, as I was thinking about this and going through all the stories before our interview, You start seeing it build. You start seeing it build. So, hi, yeah. When did you guys really kind of hit that inspiration point to start work on the twist.
 
David Victori: I mean, so we wrote all the episodes from the beginning. So we, when we enter in production, we had the, you know, the last draft of every and each episode ready so we have super clear about every detail that we want to build up and in a way, you know, what happened with this character is, in a way, he… so, what is interesting about the project is that if every part of society stop doing or stop trying to do the correct thing, because it's complex… uh, I think that that will never have a good end, you know. I think that what we was talking a lot about this series, is that, in a way, is like society is like a teenager right now, you know, like, it's like a teenager who cannot hold complex subjects.
 
You know, everything that happens in society, we react in a really simple way, like, like, “Okay, who is the bad people? Who is the good people, who are the heroes, who are the villains?” And I think that this relationship with reality is really poor and really sad, because it is not how it is, because in our personal life, everything is complex. You know, it's not just -- things are not simple. So, coming back to the question, when we build that with this character, we try to, kind of like make him go through all the way feeling this kind of disappointment with everything that happened. So, at the end, he feel alone and he feel completely disconnected, in order to, in some moment, he can do anything, and it's okay, you know?
 
John Betancourt: That's great. That's brilliant, and what a good point on society being so immature at this point. Now obviously, I hear you're passionate about this. We talked about the passion before. What did you enjoy the most about putting together this wonderful first season?
 
David Victori: Look the other day, I just shoot another project with the same DOP and part of the same team and we were talking the other day, and he said something really interesting. He said, “in Tú También lo Harías, everything works in a really magical way.” He said, “suddenly we had the ingredients to make the perfect cocktail,” you know? And it's true that when I remember the shooting of this project, the editing and the writing, it was really magical. I think that we choose really well, the team, we choose really well, the actors, the synergy with all the actors, it was amazing. It was something magical and something really, really strange that happened that doesn’t always happen, John, that is, I had completely creative freedom, and that was amazing. That was a dream come true. So, I remember that expression of freedom, creative freedom. And when I was in that process, I remember being aware of that and understanding that that was something that I have to be really grateful about, because it's not always like this, yeah, so I earned that as much with as much responsibility as possible, you know? So, so, yeah, I remember, my memories, about this project is they're really special.
 
John Betancourt: Keeping in that line of thinking, what does it mean to you to have created something so refreshing and so original?
 
David Victori: It's, it's my goal from the beginning, you know, I try to make movies that I will enjoy as an audience, you know, and I don't know… I think that I'm not particularly smart. So, I need something when I watch movies or a series. I need something that really grabs my attention so really quick, but then I don't want, I don't want movies or stories that don't go deep, you know. So, if I put my time in some story, I want that person or that crew or that team, to bring me somewhere that I cannot reach for myself, right? So, if you choose my series, I want the journey to make sense. And you know, because I really value the time that people can put in my stories. I think that is the most precious gift that someone can give you is their time. So, when somebody give me that, I want to use that in a really entertaining way, but at the same time, you know, try to give that person a point of view of reality that sometimes maybe he cannot see, or she cannot see for themselves.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of when with what you've assembled here?
 
David Victori: I think that the energy that the story has. Because I think that we shot the project in a way that we try to bring something really organic and authentic. And I feel that is in the result. And you can see that has this kind of like characters that you feel, you feel something real on what you are watching, it's really, in a way, that you feel that something was happening there, and really was happening. I mean, what I don't want is that I don't want to put the camera in something that is dead. I want the camera to put in something that is alive. And in order to shoot something that is alive, when we are living this, when we are shooting this, has to be alive, because, if not, you know, it's just too mental, you know, too intellectual. And I think that we did a lot of efforts to try to do that during the shooting. And I think that we catch that and it's what we offer to the people who want to enjoy the show.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

It is definitely safe to say that season two of Based on a True Story on Peacock is about as epic as it gets. Courtesy of some powerful storytelling decisions and some amazing twists and turns. One of which involved the character, Drew. Who we learned, wasn’t Drew, but Olivia and had her own sordid past with Matt. One that brought about quite the explosive confrontation, and well, now that we’ve all had time to process season two, we thought it best to sit down with cast member Melissa Fumero, who played Drew-Livia, to discuss all things Based on a True Story.
 
John Betancourt: I would love to start by getting to know what it was that attracted you to the role of Olivia/Drew.
 
Melissa Fumero: Well, I was already a fan of the show and a fan of Annie Weissman and also Kaley (Cuoco), so it was a really exciting call to get. And then also, when they told me about the character, it felt really different from anything I've done. The show itself feels really different from anything I've gotten to do. So, it was just like a very easy yes, and an exciting situation all around.
 
John Betancourt So you bring up a good point that we have to expand upon… the fact that you're a fan of the show. Because you’re one of many of us that love it so, and I’m curious why you think it resonates so well with audiences.
 
Melissa Fumero: Oh, man, I think. Well, I mean, it’s a stellar cast that is so fun and easy to watch. I think also the premise, the sort of comment, the satire about these, you know, intense fandoms that exist in these little niche genres, is a really interesting topic to explore and have fun with, and I think the show does it in a really clever and fun way. You know, they're making a lot of comments, but you never feel preached to. And you know, you never know where it's gonna go. You know, the violence and the gore comes out of left field. You never see it coming. So, it's just a fun thriller, exciting show to watch, and I think that's why it resonates with so many people.
 
John Betancourt: You are so right about the twists. I don't think I saw anything coming this year at all, and speaking of the twists, out of curiosity for your character, were you given advance knowledge of what was going to happen with Drew/Olivia?
 
Melissa Fumero: I was. Annie Weisman and Jaclyn Moore were really generous and told me all of the twists and turns before I started, which was so valuable and does not always happen as an actor. And it was just really fun to get to hold those secrets with me in every scene. And I think they really informed my approach and my choices. And so, I was just very grateful to know everything before I started.
 
John Betancourt: That does lead me to my next question, because there is a wonderful nuance to what you do this season in playing two characters really, and I'm curious how you, as an actor, built that incredible duality.
 
Melissa Fumero: Oh, thanks, yeah. I mean, again, I think it was, you know, having the knowledge of all the secrets, you know, and getting to play, to choose when to lean into those. I think there's a really specific way that she interacts with Ava because of those secrets, and the way she questions Ava, and the way she listens to certain things that she says. You know, it's all like, kind of there, and then when the big reveal happens, then that was just like, kind of fun to get to create, like, who is this person, really, without all the masks that she wears? So, it was like just a very fun, dreamy role to play as an actor.
 
John Betancourt: Speaking of that enjoyment in general, what was it that you enjoyed the most about playing Olivia and Drew?
 
Melissa Fumero: Yeah, I think, you know, I've been a fan of Kaley's from afar for a long time, and we fell into a really easy rapport and chemistry from day one, and so doing scenes with her, all those scenes in the restaurant were so fun to shoot, and we played a lot, and we ad libbed, and she's just a really fun person to act with. You kind of don't know what she's gonna like, toss at you, which is always fun and, and I think, you know, playing, getting to play with the whole cast in that, you know, in that final episode for my character, was also like, really fun. And all the little things that are revealed about her character and her history with Matt is, to me, was so interesting and fun. And, you know, letting all those kinds of nuggets out. So, it was a great way to spend my summer.
 
John Betancourt: I always find that we each kind of take something away from the experiences that we go through. And I'm curious with a show this intelligent and this deep, what did you take away from playing Olivia/Drew?
 
Melissa Fumero: So, I learned that there's a really specific way that you have to hold fake blood in your mouth in order to cough it up naturally, which I did not anticipate would be really tricky to do. It's like you gotta, like, hold it really, like in your throat. So, I left the show with some new tricks and techniques for playing death scenes, which it was my first time dying. And you know, I just love the different kind of the fun that this show has with tone and genre, it was really appealing to me, and I kind of hope to do more things like that.
 
John Betancourt: That’s interesting, I’ve talked to a lot of folks who’ve dealt with fake blood and horror elements, and you're the first one to bring up the art of throwing up blood.
 
Melissa Fumero: Yeah, it's, it's harder than it looks. Yeah. I was… after the first take. I was like, “Oh, I think I did it wrong.” It was really bad the first take. And I was just like, “Oh, wait, no. This is hard.” I was like, “Let me, give me a minute to figure this out.” There's some mechanics there. If you don't hold it in your cheek, it'll look real bad.
 
John Betancourt: Well, I just got my first acting lesson, and I very much appreciate it! I'd also love to know what you hope the audience takes away from this season of storytelling, from maybe a more messaging standpoint.
 
Melissa Fumero: Oh, hmm. I mean, there's so many comments that this show makes. I think… about fame, about fandom. I think about, you know, gosh, yeah, it's, you know, there is a sort of, like intense culture around fandom. I think that is happening right now. And I think this show is examining, like, one aspect of it, and in a fun, satirical way, kind of maybe warning people how out of control it can possibly get, and that, you know, maybe it's not so good to, like, hold anyone up on too high a pedestal.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to your work in season two here?
 
Melissa Fumero: Oh, um, you know, I think it's always really hard as an actor to kind of come into someone's house and just like, fold yourself in. And, you know, it's terrifying to do. And you know, when I was a younger actor, and I did guest stars, and you know, anything like that, it's a tricky dynamic. You want to honor the space that they've already created, and then you also, like, want to bring in your own thing. And I think this is the first time that, um, I think I did that from a really confident place. It also is because I was so, so welcomed by this show and this cast and this crew and everyone just made me feel really comfortable. So that made it easier. But yeah, I think that's probably the thing I'm most proud of, was just, um, yeah, not letting any nerves get the best of me, and just kind of having the confidence to just jump in with them and trust everyone around me and have fun. And I did.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Truly, the new-boot of Night Court on NBC does an amazing job of bringing in and bringing back amazing guest stars that entertain and impact the story, and last night… Bert, played by Betsy Sodaro returned to Judge Stone’s courtroom for more shenangians. And we here at NTG had the distinct honor of sitting down with Betsy to discuss ‘The Hole Truth’ regarding Bert. 
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious to start off by getting to learn what as an actor, attracted you to the part of Bert.
 
Betsy Sodaro:  I mean, honestly, just the idea of like, kind of a no BS, like, custodian who works in like, a New York Night Courtroom. I was like, “Yeah, absolutely.” This seems so much fun, like all this stuff she must have seen and sees every day is like, “Oh, that's so much fun.” And I'm just a big fan of Night Court and sitcoms in general, I'm like, you know, this sounds so much fun. I want to do this. You know? 
 
John Betancourt: Something that I really enjoy is the fact that doesn't matter what week it is or what what's going on in that court, every character has such amazing depth to them and has such a realism to them, and Bert is no exception to that rule, and I'm very curious how you built that depth, because Bert felt like somebody that we've all known at some point.
 
Betsy Sodaro: I feel like, because, truly, when I first read the role, it felt very much like,” Oh, she has a lot of other stuff happening in her life that doesn't have has anything to do with what's going on here in the courtroom,” where it's just kind of like, “What is she doing on her time off?” You know, in like, kind of a weirdo in a great way, where, and they, like dropped, there are always, like, a couple of hints where it's like, “Wait, what's your deal, man?” you know, and I think that brings a lot, like, just a really fun game to that character, and just kind of like, yeah, some intrigue of what's happening, what's going on in your life, in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom, which is very fun. 
 
John Betancourt: Now you mentioned your adoration of the show, and I kind of want to go back to it as well, because Night Court is such an important show and so iconic. What is it about Night Court that you love, just from a personal perspective.
 
Betsy Sodaro: I really love how kind of cartoony it can get. Like, I've always been such a fan of comedy in general, and mostly like the cartoon heightening of stuff where it is, like, yeah, why not have a great big hole where stuff just disappears and there's no explanation. Like, I love, and I feel that happens on this show a lot, of like, these jokes and these ideas just heightened so much like a cartoon, that it's just like, “This is so funny and fun and feels like just that classic sitcom.” And for me, the classic like, “Oh, this is what comedy is to me, where it gets so heightened and silly.” And having those characters that like help ground the silly, even though they're just as silly. You know, I just, I love it so much. It really makes me happy. 
 
John Betancourt: To expand on that a little further, why do you think this show continues to resonate so well with audiences.
 
Betsy Sodaro: I think I really do think the kind the comedy of it all and how silly it gets; I think people really like that. You know, people really kind of want that. I feel special. I mean, this is so cliché, and I feel people have been saying it for the last, like, 40 years, but it is like people want an escape. People want to laugh. And this is a great show where it's like, it absolutely deals with relevant stuff, but not to where it's like, punching you in the face, to be like, “Yeah, we're living that right now. We're living that. And this is kind of rough.” It's more of like, “Yeah, this thing's happening. But also, here are the funny ways our very beloved characters are reacting to what's going on and stuff,” which I think, I do think it's like the fun kind of cartoony comedy of it all is what people are like, “Yes, I need this right now.”
 
John Betancourt: I agree. I mean, especially, I think probably this year, more than ever. Now, comedy is where you thrive, as are sitcoms and television, and I’m curious how you prepare for a show like this. What process do you go through to get Bert ready? 
 
Betsy Sodaro: Oh, my goodness. Well, I will say, fortunately, I have gotten to do a ton of stuff for live audiences, and I've also gotten to do quite a few multi cam sitcoms, which are so much fun, and having that live audience is just so incredible, and such a rush. And it's all just --especially coming into Night Court it… I was absolutely a little nervous, because I'm like, I'm just like, some of the biggest, like, sitcom legends ever, you know, like Melissa (Rauch) and John (Larroquette) and now Wendie (Malick), like… freaking out. But also, what's so wonderful about multi cam is that we rehearse. You get to rehearse a lot, and you get to, like, you kind of get to try, depending on the show or night, you can try things and, like, kind of make moves and see, like, does that work? And it's just… it's surprisingly, like, relaxing and just really fun. And I gotta say, the whole vibe on the set of Night Court, the writers, the crew, the cast, made it super fun and chill and easy to kind of walk on and be like, let's make people laugh. Let's just have fun and get silly. Which rules like, that's all you can hope for in a job.
 
John Betancourt: Now you bring up a good point about nerves. a really good point about nerves. We don't talk about that a lot, because everybody kind of assumes that actors are immediately, you know, ready to go, just like that. How then did you get over some of those nerves? 
 
Betsy Sodaro: Yeah, a big thing is, like, for me personally, when, because you always start with a table read of the episode, like the very first day, the first thing you do is a table read. And for me, once I get that, like first laugh, that's kind of like, “Oh, okay, here we go. Here we go.” But then, of course, right before shooting and stuff. I still get the nerves, and I'm glad I still get a little nervous and excited. Be like, “Okay, be on your toes. Get ready for this.” But it is like, and once again, while shooting, getting that first laugh is such a big like, “Oh, okay, the audience is on our side. Let's go,” you know, so that's a that's a big and once again, just rehearsing helps me so much. 
 
John Betancourt: I really appreciate that insight. The last question I have for you today, what you enjoy the most about getting a chance to be on Night Court and just play in this playground.
 
Betsy Sodaro: I mean, I do think being surrounded by such unbelievably great performers was a dream come true. You know where it is like -- I've been watching these people for years, and now I get to, like, make them laugh and laugh with them, and, like, make a really fun show. It's just such a dream. And also, like, it's just, it's so fun just being on set and once again, like rehearsing all week and then putting a show on it just… yeah, it's a dream come true. It feels wild. I'm constantly like, “Whoa, okay. Is this real? I'll take it!”
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity. 

Truly, one of the staples of the Night Court franchise on NBC, are its guest stars. For they always deliver incredible moments and incredible plotlines and one that is of note, is Ryan Hansen. For he stole the show as Jake in season two and played a pivotal role in the show’s cliffhanger season two finale, and he continues to impress. Courtesy of his amazing performance during last night’s episode, and we had the honor of sitting down with Ryan to discuss Jake’s season three journey thus far.
 
John Betancourt: We talked a little bit last time about whether or not there's going to be more, Jake. And when did you find out then that we were going to get more Jake on Night Court.
 
Ryan Hansen: I don't know. Maybe it was when they got picked up for a season three. And then, you know, they call my agent, or whatever, and they're like, “Is he available?” And I'm like, “Yes. I'm available.” (Laughs) So, you know, I don't know, it was maybe a month or two before you start shooting or whatever. So yeah, and then, you know, you do a couple, and then they're like, “Well, we want you for some more.” And, you know, it’s great.
 
John Betancourt: How did that make you feel? Because, I mean, I know this has been, it's been an important role to you.
 
Ryan Hansen: Oh, it's so fun, dude. Because I think I did the first episode just kind of as a one off, and then, you know, Melissa (Rauch) and I hit it off so well, and the whole cast is so cool. And my character and her really, you know, kind of shined together and hit it off. So, I was happy that they were like, “come on back.” Because it's really, it's one of the most fun gigs you can have. It’s a multi cam in front of a live audience with a cool cast and working with Melissa (Rauch) and John (Larroquette) and everybody. So, yeah.
 
John Betancourt: Now in talking about the episode itself, there is some incredibly mimicking that you and John Larroquette pull off. How did you pull that off? Because that was huge.
 
Ryan Hansen: I mean, working with John anyway, I'm already looking at him and kind of like studying what he does. He's, you know, a legend in this world. I think it's like three or four... I think four Emmys, you know, with this show. So, I look up to him so much already that it's like, you know, I'm already studying him, you know. And you're trying not to be like him as an actor. And then for this, you're like, “Oh no, it's okay to kind of act like him, you know, because he might be your dad.” So that was a blast for me, because he's, I look up to him anyway, and his acting style and in his presence, like he would just sit there and even off camera, just tell these cool old Hollywood stories. they're just endless too. It's so fun. They're so fun. So, I look up to him anyway. So, it was really easy in that, in that sense. And we kind of like talked about, “Okay, we're gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it like this.” And I'm like, “Yes, I'll do it like that.” You know, you'll he kind of tells me what to do, which is great.
 
John Betancourt: That makes total sense. And another testament to your work here, is that there's some really beautiful moments in this episode, especially when Jake brings in the crate of memories. There's an authenticity to it and such a beauty to it, like the longing is there. And I'm curious how you tapped into that, because that felt just shockingly real on screen.
 
Ryan Hansen: Yeah, well, that's cool for you to say. Man, I think it's just like thinking about if I didn't have my dad, you know, and then finding him later in life, what would that be like, you know? And I would want him to know all these things about me. And like, have that connection. So that was kind of easy. And, you know, because I have kids, and thinking about my kids not having me around, and, you know, for a lot of people that's the case, and it's, it's heartbreaking, and it's, it's beautiful when they do find each other. So, I just kind of thought about that kind of stuff. And you know, it's in the script anyway, so there's all that.
 
John Betancourt: I think what's interesting too, is the surprise ending. It felt like… I mean, with the mimicking, with that beautiful longing, it felt like it was going to come to the two of them being related, but it's kind of a shocker of an ending. And I'm curious what you think fans are going to feel about kind of a surprise, that they are not father and son.
 
John Betancourt: Yeah, I think, you know, because I didn't know until we shot it, or got the script, either, that it didn't work out. And so, I was actually kind of bummed too. I thought I was going to be John Larroquette’s son; you know? So, I think people will be bummed. But also, you know, I think they had that moment. I think that was special for them. And I think they'll always have that kind of connection, the kind of like, “what if,” you know, we were, and I think, I think they still have that bond of, you know, trying to work together and figuring it out, like if they were anyway. So, I think people will be… I don't know. I don't know what people will think. I was bummed. I was bummed.
 
John Betancourt: Well, let's talk about that for a second then, and kind of expand on why, why exactly you were bummed?
 
Ryan Hansen: Yeah, I just… kind of felt bad for Jake, like, you know, like, I don't think he even realized how much he would like a father figure, even at this age in life, you know, and what that would mean to him. So, for him to have his hopes up like that, and to really connect with John – or -- Dan, you know, like, I could see how that would be heartbreaking, and also, then you move on, and he wasn't really my dad anyway, so it's all good. So, you know, I think there's just that moment of, like, real disappointment that that could have been a really cool thing and fulfilling thing for both of them.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously you know, you get to do a lot more this season, which is great. You know, we get more of that fun with Jake. And there's a real kind of, um, looseness to it. Was there some kind of freedom you had this year as an actor, to really kind of do more with Jake and really flesh him out and just have a lot more fun on set with him.
 
John Betancourt: Oh, that's interesting. Um, I don't know if there was necessarily, like a like a moment where, like, you're more free. I think maybe I was just more comfortable, like getting to know the cast and, you know, and kind of getting to know the character a little more, you know, as a guest star, it's hard to come in and to a show that's already a well-oiled machine. And like, you're, you're popping, and you're supposed to be all natural and stuff. Well, that's, you know, it's kind of tough. So, I think the more I was there, the more comfortable I felt with the character and everything.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously you enjoy working on the show, you enjoy being on set. You enjoy playing Jake. What has been the most fulfilling part of this experience for you so far?
 
Ryan Hansen: Yeah, I think like just getting to work with Melissa and John and Wendy (Malick) and Lacretta and Nyambi (Nyambi), like aeveryone's so great and so cool and Dan (Rubin), you know, the showrunner and creator, it just feels like a family there. I mean, it's, I think people say that, but like, it really, everyone's pretty tight and coming in as a guest again, and them being so cool about it, like, “come on in.” You know, it's very comforting, and it's just fun. You just play. It's, it's like doing a play. So, it's like playing make believe in front of a live audience, it's, it's a blast. That's my favorite part. And it's down the street, which we love.
 
John Betancourt: That's always the best part. Anytime you can have a short walk to work. Man, what a day. Last question that I have for you today, from a more global perspective in general, what are you most excited for fans to experience in season three of the show?
 
Ryan Hansen: I think just the journey with Jake and Abby, the ups and downs, the really fun episodes they get to have together. There's some really wacky stuff and really silly, fun stuff they get to do. And it gets a little, you know, dramatic. There's highs and lows, you know. So, I think that's really fun and really exciting to watch for them.
 
This interview has been lightly and condensed for clarity.

Michael Costigan is an accomplished producer that has helped to give life to some incredible shows and movies over the years. Currently, he serves as an Executive Producer on the Peacock series, Based on a True Story, and we had the honor of sitting down with Michael to discuss season two of the show.
 
John Betancourt: I'd love to start by getting to know what it means to be to be back for a second season.
 
Michael Costigan: Well, it's so fun, because if anyone saw season one and saw what it's like to watch on screen, Kaley Cuoco and Chris Messina, that's what it's like to actually work with them as well. So, it was a giant pleasure, and I'm really excited for people to see it, because, by the way, we didn't know what was going to happen at the beginning of season two. We were like, “Well, how do they get out of it?” and then, you're about to see or do they get out of it?
 
John Betancourt: Speaking of the fact that you're back for a second season, obviously, audiences love the show. I love this show. And I'm very curious why you think as an EP, it resonates well with audiences.
 
Michael Costigan: Well, I you know, as a producer, you gotta think like, if I think this is really funny and entertaining. I hope the audience will too. And what I thought from the very beginning, and what it feels like the audience really loved, what we did in the beginning was... true crime, we're obsessed with true crime is also insane. Why are we following these stories and obsessed with killers and murder and the most terrible things? And we can't get enough of it. And so, to watch these characters who kind of feel like us, but let's be honest, funnier, you know, and maybe not for you, for me, but you know. But basically, watching them go down this rabbit hole, and you're rooting for them to, like, do crazy stuff and do a podcast and get away with it. And it goes further and further. The idea that a second season, and we got so lucky, Annie Weissman, who did the show, Physical, one of my absolute favorites, loved the show.
 
She was a fan, and came on board for season two, and she and her team of writers decided, how do we even go further? They have a baby now, of course, and how do we take this to a place that no one is going to even expect? And I really hope the audience has fun with that and thinks that we achieve that goal, because I certainly did. I literally, Annie was so funny about it. She would -- she was pitching the season, and then said, “All right, I'm not gonna tell you what happens after six.” I said, “Well, don't I have to know, as the producer?” She’s like, “You need to read it.” And I remember literally shouting at the end of six, like, “No!” I had no idea. So, if she can surprise us, I think the audience is gonna have a really good time.
 
John Betancourt: Their lives are indeed way funnier than mine, so you're absolutely 110% correct there. Also, what does it mean you to be telling such an original story, because this has just been so refreshing to watch.
 
Michael Costigan: Oh, that's great to hear. I mean, that's how we felt when we first heard the idea of the show. So, I was lucky enough to hear -- our partner in our company is Jason Bateman, who also like, I feel like, if we can, like, tell Jason something that he feels like he hasn't heard before, so, when the creator of the show came in and said, “I want to do a show about this, and it's loosely based on this crazy experience, etc, etc,” Jason and I, our jaws hit the ground. “What? How do they do this? How do they keep getting away with it, etc, etc.” So, I think if we could be that surprised, we thought, all right, well, I think we have a shot here to do something for the audience that really feels original and unique and can be both a thriller and Hitchcockian and funny at the same time.
 
John Betancourt: it's also very intelligent too. I love the many layers and themes that are present in the show. And I'm curious for season two, if there's a particular theme or message, you'd like the audience to take away from it, what would it be this season
 
Michael Costigan: That is such a good question. Well, season one, I think, really got into that duality of true crime. And I think season two, when you have a child, it asks you, who are you, who do you want to be? What are you telling your child? Who are you? And these are both people who you know, as we meet Chris and Kaley in season two, who are going to give up what they were doing, but who are they at this stage of life? And I really think this is a season of, who are you? Who do you want to be? What does your life look like when the mask comes off and then, and then, what are the choices you're going to make? I just made it sound like a big drama. It's funny as hell. So, I think within the comedy, hopefully that's what it gets to be. But who do you want to be, and what are you willing to do to be that person?
 
John Betancourt: What are you most proud of when it comes to what you've accomplished so far with the two seasons of this show?
 
Michael Costigan: Well, what I'm honestly most proud of is it's such a pleasure. I mean, the thing about this show that people might not know is as funny as especially Kaley and Chris are on screen after you yell “cut,” they're still making jokes, they're still goofing around, they're still like -- it is such a pleasure and to literally be making a show that is as much fun to watch on screen and then in between takes and offset and working with such a great group of artists, and to do something that hopefully feels original and entertaining. And as you said, like that thematically is, you know, maybe also even about something, I feel really proud of that. And it's such a great gang, and I hope that comes through as people watch it. I mean, we had such a great time making Season Two. It's really become such a family, and I think that's why it's so funny. I think Chris and Kaley are like, have become their characters, or the characters have become them, or, who knows, but we could watch them for hours.
 
John Betancourt: Now we’ve talked about some deep concepts today. But obviously this is entertainment at its core, and you guys want to put on an entertaining show. So, from a more general standpoint, what are you excited for audiences to experience when this airs?
 
Michael Costigan: Well, I think you know, all of us have seen so many different shows that are trying to take us on a journey and surprise us, etc. And I don't know about you, but I always feel, “Ah, I know what’s gonna happen here, whatever.” And I love making a show where it can be surprising and true to character, and not surprising, because we're going to jump the shark, but who are they, and that we get to be with these characters, and they're going to take us somewhere new. And that's the part where it's not, “Oh, season two, well, of course, in season one, they set up where it's going to go.” We've all seen so much television and so many movies that you telegraph, and this is going to happen. I love making a show that trusts the audience. It says they want to be surprised, just like us. We don't need to spoon feed them anything. And with this group of actors who needs to? You get to really go on that journey with them, and to see something that feels original, funny, bold, like little bit of that raised eyebrow, I want to watch that, and I really hope the audience does too.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today, if you had to describe this season in a singular word, what would that word be?
 
Michael Costigan: That's a good question. If I had to describe this season, I would just say, unexpected.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Liana Liberato is a talented actor that has appeared on the silver and small screen often. Currently she stars as Tori in the hit Peacock series, Based on a True Story, and we had the honor of sitting down with Liana to discuss season two of the show.
 
John Betancourt: I want to know what it means to you as an actor to be back for a second season.
 
Liana Liberato: Oh, it's so exciting. I mean, I think obviously every, every actor sign that signs on to a TV show is hoping to, you know, get another season. So, I feel it's a privilege, and I'm so excited for it to be yours now, and everyone can watch it and enjoy it. We had so much fun making the show, and hopefully people feel the enthusiasm when they watch it.
 
John Betancourt: I was so excited to hear you guys got a second season as well, mainly because the show just seems to call to everyone. Everyone is constantly buzzing about it. And I'm curious why you think this show resonates so well with audiences.
 
Liana Liberato: Ooh. I mean, we're all obsessed with True Crime right now. We all love it. And also, you know, I think that Kaley (Cuoco) has such a little star over her head, and she is so she's so enticing, like she's so fun to watch and I think that people follow her, people want to see what she's doing next. I think when you when you find out Kaley's attached to something, you know it's gonna be interesting and good and funny. And I think that this show is a little off the rails, and we, we make some crazy choices. And I, honestly, I don't really know anything else that's out that's like this. So, I feel like people are interested in to tune in, and it's never really what you expect. So, it's an exciting watch.
 
John Betancourt: That brings me right to my next question. As you said, you really are a part of a refreshing and original story. There really isn't anything like it on TV. What does it mean to you as both an actor and just as a person in general, be part of a story that's so unique and so original.
 
Liana Liberato: It's cool, it's exciting. I mean, I never know what they're gonna throw at me until I receive a script, and so I sort of, I get to kind of react the same way an audience would, you know, but I'm just in my bed reading a script, and I'm like, “Well, that's crazy.” And then when I feel like, when I react that way, I'm like, “Oh, that's awesome. People will probably react that way too,” but it's cool. I think that, you know, that's sort of the difference between doing movies and television, is, you know, when you do movies, you know how it ends, and with TV, you don't. So, it's exciting. It's challenging as an actor.
 
John Betancourt: I'm also curious too, because, as you mentioned a moment ago, it gets into obsession. It gets into so many amazing things about this -- kind of where we're at in a pop culture standpoint. And I'm very curious with season two, kind of upping the ante and taking us on some new journeys, what do you kind of hope, from a commentary standpoint, audiences take away from season two?
 
Liana Liberato: Oh, that's a good point. I What do I hope people will take from it? I mean, you know, there's something really special about the show because it's a dark comedy, and it's, and it's obviously, you know, it's for entertainment. You're supposed to watch this and enjoy it and binge it and have a great time. But honestly, there's so many layers to these characters, and I think that, I think it's an interesting outlook, and like, commentary on, like, just the human experience and how people can be very layered and very nuanced, and sometimes they are very wise, and then other times they can make very, very dumb decisions. And I hope that people can kind of take away a bit of, you know, there is some humanness to these people, and sometimes, and I think the show holds a mirror up, and maybe some people just aren't willing to look at their own reflection sometimes, like that.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, from a more global standpoint, I mean, there's so many big moments in this, the first few episodes alone, I don't want to spoil anything, but in general, what are you excited for audiences to experience when they when they settle in this year?
 
Liana Liberato; Ooh. I mean, it's fun. There's, there's a bit of a mystery, there's a new killer. And you, you know, you kind of get to unravel that with Ava and sort of play detective. And, you know, all of the best parts about season one are back. And then there's also some very new, refreshing, refreshing things coming your way.
 
 
John Betancourt: What are you most proud of when it comes to what you've accomplished on the show so far as an actor?
 
Liana Liberato: Oh, um, I would say, I think I feel like I've just learned so much. I mean, I knew I knew what I was getting into because I was such a fan of specifically Chris (Messina) and Kaley when I signed on to the show and I just feel really honored to get to work with them and learn from them. It honestly just feels like one big acting lesson all the time. And I feel very grateful to be in a field where I don't think I'll never stop learning.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, if you had to describe Season Two of the show in a single word, what would that word be?
 
Liana Liberato: Wild.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Dolores Heredia is a talented actor that has appeared in a bevy of shows and films. Recently she starred as Lety in the Apple TV+ series, Midnight Family, and to properly close out season one, we sat with Dolores to discuss all things Midnight Family.
​
John Betancourt: I'd love to start by getting to know what attracted you to this project as an actor.
 
Dolores Heredia: So, I initially, I watched the documentary that the story, the series is based on, and I remember the impact that I felt from it. It was so well made, but I also remember the story, and mostly it gave visibility to an issue that we live with every day, but that we know nothing about. Eventually, at some point or another, we will all need an ambulance, but this is something that goes so unseen in the city and also inside. We have no idea what is going on in each of those ambulances. We know nothing about the people and what beats inside those vehicles, and that it's humans saving other humans, and it's part of that network of chaos and help and rescue.
 
John Betancourt: Since that is such an important thing to highlight, and since the show explores so many important themes, I'm very curious what you hope the audience takes away from season one of the show.
 
Dolores Heredia: Well, I think mostly it's about understanding firstly, what this network represents and that we need that access of life saving resources, and this is a service that needs to be regulated and needs to be improved, and secondly, needs to be humanized. We need to look at the people that are actually in there. So, the show is about that. It's about understanding that fragment of humanity and that segment of the population that we really don't see. So, the show provides a deeper look into all that.
 
John Betancourt: Which is some great insight. And I'm also curious, too, speaking of insights, what it means to you as an actor to be part of such a refreshing and original project
 
Dolores Heredia: Well, I really love the possibilities of it all. I think it's, it's something that makes me feel fulfilled and proud to be part of such a large production and so deep with a very vast insight into the city that we love. I'm not actually from here, but I love the city, and what we see is this network. It's like the lymphatic system of a body with all its different channels and networks. And what we see is an is a real, profound portrait of the city and all the complexities of the people and the services that we live with on a daily basis.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to what you accomplished this first season as an actor?
 
Dolores Heredia: Well, that it's rather funny. I mean, it's so lovely to get to this sort of place where most of your colleagues are actually younger performers, young actors, and they're the leads. They carry the main part of the story. And it's also lovely to be there and to support them throughout the telling of such a complex, deep story.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Young King was one of the most powerful films to be featured at the 31st Austin Film Festival this year. For it is that rare feature that takes an honest look at the struggles that veterans face returning home, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with the creative team from this film at the AFF, Writer/Director Bryant T. Griff, Composer Karam Salem, and Producer Selena Leoni, to discuss how this feature came together.
 
John Betancourt: Bryant, what inspired you to write and direct this feature?
 
Bryant T. Griffin:  So, I just a little bit of background on me. I'm from visual effects. So again, I really again, I'm a nerd. I worked at Lucasfilm for about 12 years. So, I worked at Industrial Light and Magic. My first screen credit is Revenge of the Sith. Worked on the Potter films, Transformers, but I've always wanted to direct, and so I knew I had to make that transition. And UCLA was one of the schools that would allow you to make a feature for a thesis. And so, I knew going in I wanted to make a feature, but I didn't know about what. I knew I wanted it to center around African American life, middle class. Nobody is a drug dealer, and nobody is addicted to drugs, middle class, working families. And what happened is that, unfortunately, I have a friend who served in the second Iraq War. Another story that's not really told is African Americans who serve, you know, and serve this country for generations. And so, I wanted to cover that, and unfortunately, he came back from the second Iraq War, suffered from PTSD and was denied his benefits, and ended up something tragic happened, which is in the film. And the more research I started to do, the more I realized I didn't know about PTSD, mental health, because around 2008 is when it was becoming, you know, more mainstream to discuss it. Before the second Iraq war, we didn't really talk about PTSD, think about it. So, so around 2007, 2008 we started to talk about it, started to get soldiers help. And again, I felt that this was important story to tell African American community dealing with mental health issues, which is something that's also frowned upon. And so, it became this story about, you know, again, a slice of life, family of color, middle class, but also deals with important issues.
 
John Betancourt: Selena, as a producer, what inspired you want to get behind this film and get it out?
 
Selena Leoni: So, one of the thing that first attracted me is when Bryant was telling me the story about his friend, and then I'm not from the US originally, then you mentioned something about other than honorable discharge. So, I was like, what is that? So, I'm the type of person that when I don't know something, I'm drawn to story that I don't know anything about. I'm curious about it. And so, what is that, and why does that cause him to lose his benefit, or, like, not being able to get benefit? Yeah, so I was very curious about, like, why, like, there's a system that is supposed to help them, but it's not, just because the way they were discharged and the way they were discharged might be related to something that happened over there, too. And then the other thing that's really important to me is mental health, that it's not really talked about often in a lot of culture, like, where I'm from, like, I don't think anyone is, like, going to therapy. Like, even nowadays, like, when you talk about therapy, I'm like, I'm from Italy and China, both my culture, I feel like people just don't really talk about it, and they treat it as something like, “Oh, you're going to therapy. Is something wrong with you?” instead of, like, everyone kind of needs it, yeah. So that's really that. I think there's that even though it's a very specific story to the African American community in North Carolina, it's also very universal.
 
John Betancourt: Karam, what attracted you to want to be the composer of this.
 
Karam Salem: So, I believe I'm related to the film in so many ways, but I first got to know about it because I met Bryant in Los Angeles when we almost both started our careers, a while, 10 years ago. So, when Bryant wanted to make this film, I was on a very early time to get to know about it and absorb it. But what is even more interesting? So, I'm originally from Iraq. I was born and raised there for the first 18 years of my life, in Baghdad. Okay, so the things you saw on TV was like 15 minutes away from my home, and the event of the story, of the film, happened during the time when I was in my early years in high school. We didn't plan this too, yeah, like this was not planned. It's just the universe wanted us to meet in a way, and here we are today, so to a certain degree at fault, I was telling my own story too, through Diondre’s tragedy and where he came from, and also like what happens afterwards, when they come back? Because I feel like that's a part that no one talks about, you know, that's a part that no one -- it's almost like when the war starts and that's it, it stays there, you know, like there's what happens afterwards? What happens to the to the people who come back? What happens to the people who stayed there, you know? And how does life change? What happens to the people who left, like me and to be part of these kind of projects? So, like, that's kind of how it started. I don't know how to answer it, rather than just the universe wanted us to do. That happens so much.
 
John Betancourt: Now Bryant, this movie holds nothing back in exploring PTSD, and I a various curious how did you assemble such detail regarding that?
 
Bryant T. Griffin: Basically, again when I remember where I was, when I heard the news of what happened in the story, and I had grown up with this individual, went to church with him, and this was something that I knew him before, and when he came back from service, and he was a completely different person. And again, in hearing what happened, I started to research. And what happened is that his family gave me access to his medical records and then later on his court documents. And so, I was able to, there's a whole sequel to this. But again, I focused on what, you know, the personal story, the intimate story that I could tell with the resources that we had. And so, I focused on family, but there's a whole story of what happened afterwards, and I had access to those court documents, and as I mentioned, his medical records. And so, the stuff was there, the information was there, and it just led me down this, this rabbit hole of, wait a second, this stuff is real. And one of the things that happened is that as I completed my first script, the script was a finalist for the Sloan award.
 
And the Sloan award is a science-based award. And as you apply for these awards and fundings, they pair you with a specialist in the field. And so, they actually paired me with someone who studies neurochemistry, and PTSD. And so, when I met with the scientist, he basically said, neurochemistry is a real thing, and your emotions are chemically -- they can be chemically controlled. And what he the way he explained PTSD, is that basically there's something that fires in your brain, and when you're at in a situation that causes fight or flight, causes adrenaline, and it doesn't shut off for soldiers, because they're in these tense situations for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for months at a time. And what happens is that the chemicals are rewiring your brain and so that you have this over stimulated, you know, they're over stimulated, and you have this, this hyper response to normal things. And so when I started to see that there's actual science behind them, like, “Oh, it's not just guys that come back and go to the bottle as a way to kind of cope with things, it's like, there's science behind it.’ And so, that's what, again, every layer I pull peel back, there was more there to dig into. And again, the family being, you know, really open and honest, and trusting me to tell this story and providing me with this information is that's how I was able to get that detail.
 
John Betancourt: So, this is a question for both Bryant and Selena. Because… there is a powerful sense of realism here, almost no fourth wall exists in this film, and I’m curious what motivated the decision to create a film that blurs the line? And as a producer Selena, how you supported that and nurtured it.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: So, this goes back to my geek, inner geek, because you can relate, because we were raised at a time when fantasy was total fantasy, and what's happened through the advent of the technology, we've seen things that we probably didn't think we were gonna see, like an Avengers film, a lot of stuff. We didn't think -- that's why I fell in love with Alex Ross, for example, because his paintings were photo real. And I was like, “Okay, this is the closest we're gonna get to a realistic superhero whether it's Kingdom Come, whether it's like, you know, his X-Men book.” But the thing is, I want to, eventually, in my career, I want to take the fantastical and ground it like, really make it almost like, you think it's like a, you know, the way Gareth Edwards does for monsters, for example, Godzilla. He makes it really grounded. And so, I like that. And at the same time, you know, Chloe Zhao, who did Nomadland?
 
I was really inspired by, you know, bringing in real elements like vérité. Again. There's a garage scene that is almost totally unscripted. There's some of it that is scripted, but there's some of it that's totally unscripted. And for me, that vérité, the grounded nature of it, was super important, I think, and it lends to the authenticity. And the other thing is that, be honest, it was a micro budget film, and I wasn't going to try to create something polished when I knew I didn't have the resources to execute that. So, I embraced the limitations of what we had. It's like we have no budget. I'm not going to try to make it look fancy. You know, this is a raw film. Let's, let's embrace that all the way through. And that's something that I spoke with the cinematographer about, Vito Campaner, who was really on board with it, Karam as well.
 
Selena Leoni: Like, just to chime in, I think it's really important, because part of the film is we are a fly on the wall. So, the way that Vito and Bryant, they decided to shoot it, it's like we are literally with him, because we don't --- literally she, she did all the like, we didn't have like, a camera operator. She was the one holding the camera. I had picture of her, like, holding, like, this giant camera, like handheld. And, like, I remember there was a scene where he was in the bathroom. Vito was literally, like, this close to him. So, like, the camera is literally like him in a way, that's where, like, kind of like, you say, blur the line. But also, there's another line where we don't really, we're… as a film, we're not saying who is right and wrong, we're just telling the story which is kind of real life. There's no, really, like, black and white. Everything is more like gray and blurred together. It's really hard to say, like, who's wrong and who is right? Because it's a lot of things are leading up to this.
 
John Betancourt: So. There is obviously, a big moment in this movie. One that made me audibly gasp and definitely went places that stories like this normally don’t go. But it’s important and I’m curious what went into the decision to take this story into such difficult and powerful territory.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: I'm glad you're discussing that and thank you for being delicate about how you're discussing it. To me, I think that was the entire reason to tell it, because I do think a lot of times, we don't do anyone a service when we sugar coat things, and I think a lot of times we do that, and I think that that may hurt what the film can do, because it's not a feel-good film. It is a film about love, and it's not a feel-good film. But I think that that, to be honest, that was the reason why I wanted to tell the story is that in order to honor the person which this happened to, and it's a cautionary tale, and I think sometimes you do need to shock people to pay attention. And we tried to do it in a tasteful way. We didn't want to exploit it. It's like, “Hey, this is an important issue. We're not trying to exploit it,” which is why it plays out the way it does. You know, it's almost for shock. You know, you could imagine a million different ways to shoot it, to drag out the tension, or whatever. But again, it's to kind of, again, to shock people. And this is a cautionary tale. Again, our conflicts, our wars overseas, don't end when the soldiers get on a plane and come back home. They bring that stuff with us. They're trained to do a certain thing and nothing else, and it's hard to deprogram them. And there are a lot of them. They're in all these communities, and they put themselves on the line. And I think the least we can do is to honor our part of the commitment and take care of them when they get back, because it affects everyone when we don't anything bad.
 
Selena Leoni: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. I think, like, what Bryant said, like, basically, Sign me up. But like, yeah. Like, I completely agree. Like, when they come back, it's not just them, it's everyone around them that's affected. Like, in this story, it's really sad. But like, even in like, people who might not have done something this dramatic, there's always like, stuff that they bring back that other people in their family can feel, or they might become a different person. That's why we need to take care of them, because we're also taking care of ourselves if we take care of them.
 
John Betancourt: Now this is a movie that has so much messaging and so many ideas and takeaways, which I appreciate so much. But I am curious as to what you hope audiences will take away from this film.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: What's been incredible about the response so far is that people are reminding me of what I actually initially wanted to take away from everything. It's because… I did write it a long time ago, and sometimes you look at these things so many times you forget, like, what you plant, the seeds that you planted early on. So, so a lot of it is to take care of our veterans, but a lot of it is, you know, it is about the love of a family who's trying to get help for their son. The other thing is, is the systemic, the system problems. My whole thing in this is that technically, when you look at it, everyone did what they were supposed to do, and this was the outcome, yeah, is that he signed up to serve his country, something happened to where he was discharged other than honorable. When he's denied benefits at this point in time in history, he's not supposed to get benefits because he's discharged other than honorable. And so technically, people are doing their jobs.
 
They're doing what they're supposed to do, and this was the outcome of that. And so, for me, it's about, let's look at our systems and make sure that let's, let's adjust what we're doing. Let's adjust, you know, these discharges, you know, it's like, just because something is the way it's supposed to be doesn't mean that something is right again, like to me, again, these veterans, they do things that I don't, I wouldn't do, to be completely honest. And I do think that we enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy because they put themselves on the line. And I think the least we can do is give them health care. And so again, my thing is this discharge during the time was pushed on soldiers because they wanted to save money, basically, is what it comes down to, and this is the cost of that choice. And so, let's take a look at our systems that create these situations.
 
Selena Leoni: Yeah, the other thing, it's also like that I was saying that I didn't know anything about this. So, I think I want people to like, embrace the thing that they don't know. Because I think that's the thing. I come from a multicultural background. Karam is also not originally from the US. A lot of time, people make assumption based on what they think. And I think, like, I always say that, like, it's more important to learn if you don't know something, you learn about it, instead of, like, run away from it, which is kind of this film. Like, I think, like, when we played the film, the audience would, like, never heard of it. They didn't know about it, and they learned something for it. That's kind of what I want people to take away as well, like, even if they don't know anything about this before learning about it, and not like, running away from it, because if you run away, it's still there, the issue.
 
Karam Salem: I feel for me, the important part of it that I would like the audience to receive is the true existence of such a thing, that happened once in the film, but also it happened all the time that we don't even know about. It's just for me, because I looked through so many wars, and I'm not, I don't think I'm that all to say, like, I survived three wars, right? But it's just like, you don't know what happens after, when everybody goes home. So, if we can reach that, the ending is not when everybody is home, because that is the beginning of so many other things. And I feel if we could reach that to the audience, that this happens, and it could be very close to us, and it's true, basically more of the awareness of the issue. You know, it's not just like four letters together and that's it. There's so much goes into it. Especially, I think that's especially the second Iraq war, both Iraq wars, really, we don't talk about those things so and then even, even beyond that, for other wars too.
 
John Betancourt: What does it mean to all of you now to have this on screens at this festival and at others and be seen by audiences.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: I'm thrilled. I'm nervous. Uh, my anxiety is through the roof right now. I'm extremely grateful to Austin Film Festival, yourself, and other outlets that are sitting here with us, because it is a labor of love. I believe in the work and the people that we were fortunate enough to have on the project. And so, I’m excited that people will, get to see Vincent (Washington) act and see Tarra Riggs, act and see the cinematography of Vito, and listen to the music of Karam. So, I'm thrilled. I'm eager for the discussions. You know. I'm just hoping people come out, come out, sit and enjoy and let the conversations begin. Yeah, super excited.
 
Karam Salem: I think is, is the experience, just to go through it, you know, for me, was very personal, and also, like, because I was involved in it so early on, there's a lot of things also didn't make it in the film, but probably made it in the score, you know, because it was, I was just like, absorbing all the stories. You know, we talked so much about so many things. You know, yeah, I'm truly grateful for the experience to be part of it, and I'm so excited for Sunday to experience this with people, he hasn't watched it with other people that didn't actually work on the film. So, I'm so excited to see the reactions. I'm probably going to be looking at people more than the movie, that's okay, and I want to sit in the back, in the middle of everybody.
 
Selena Leoni: Yeah, that's literally, like I was going to say when you ask that question, like my favorite thing is to, like, see the reaction, because I've seen it with, I think, like, two, two audiences. One is, like, an early cut, and then, like, when we were at the ABFF Festival, and, yeah, and then, like, the other thing that I just wanted to add on, it's not related to this question, but Karam mentioned that there was something that, there's stuff that didn't make it into the film. And then early on, you asked about, like, the details that you can see through the movie. And then Bryant mentioned, like, all the research that he did, also the script was originally like, different, talks about different stuff as well, even those, those things, I think that's part of the reason why you can feel the detail. Because even though the thing was not included in the movie. The research was there, yeah, so it was shown in the movie. So, I yeah, I was really surprised and shocked to see the reaction that people had. I remember, like, the first time we did the screening after we went up for the Q and A and I was like, taking picture of the audience, and they were like… teah. They were like, covering their face. You know, they were, like, very emotional.
 
John Betancourt: We do need to talk about the score as well, because Karam, it’s beautiful and powerful, and I’m curious how you nailed it so perfectly.
 
Karam Salem: I knew that we have to approach it from a very personal, intimate way. But I also, from the very beginning, I did want it to sound very big and cinematic. So that was the challenge from the very, very beginning. Is like, how can I make things sounds larger than life, like just with one instrument, you know? And then that's where we started, you know. And we kept experimenting, experimenting, and I feel the first theme I wrote was Diondre’s theme, and it happened over a Zoom, like, literally over a Zoom. It was just so random. Because, like, we were just talking, and I was like, Bryant, let me try something. And I played like three, four chords, and then I opened another track, and I played the cello line, and I tried so hard to do better than what I did over Zoom, it just never worked. And we kept going back to that, that sound that we created in that very moment. I don't know what happened? He probably said something, and it triggered something in me, and that what came out. And we stuck in that, and we tried to avoid it, but we always came back to it. And that's, that was the beginning of how it all started. And then we wanted to have, we wanted to have Fatima’s thme, to be also part of Diondre’s theme, so we can play them together. So that was also another challenge, but yet also we want to minimize. So, it was always, I feel like the same thing is like, how, how were you able to choose the plots that you wanted to tell in the stories? It's the same thing that we had to go through musically too, like, what is too much and what is too little? And that fine line was we were always trying to balance and check we check each other. Is it too much? Is it too little? Where are we in that, you know, orchestration wise, you know. And we always settle down on… it's we start bigger, and then we take things away or we start too simple, and we need something more to add, you know. And that's kind of was the entire process.
 
And again, I was so lucky because I was so early on into it. And then Bryant came to my studio for the entire month. We were just there. He came multiple times. He gives me notes and things and feedback. He leaves “I love” in these notes, and then he comes back, and then we --- that's kind of how the process was. So, it was a very intimate, personal experience, and we did want to approach it from Diondre’s, like mental space, like I wanted the music to sound from -- coming from his within his body, rather than outside of him. I think we… I'm proud of it. I think we achieved it. It took some time, but it's okay. Experience. It worked. I know there's a lot that.
 
Also, Bryant doesn't, doesn't, doesn't want to take the credit for it. But on that big thing that we talked that we didn't say, I remember I played him the first time to watch that scene. And I remember Bryant walking. I heard his steps coming. He was like, “Can you mute this? Can you mute that? Can we leave this one? Can we leave that one?” And then he sat back, and then I went back, and we played that scene again. And something happened in that very, very moment that I tell him, you scored that cue. He tells him, you know, I scored this cue, and it goes back, but like his, he always knew what that scene needed, and we wanted to do it for Fatima, for her character, and we wanted to honor her. And I remember when we were dubling the score to everything else, like, and we got to that moment, and I remember like we asked the dub mixer to, like we want the sound to feel like everybody in the theater is being hugged in that moment, to be part of it. And he like…  he did it like magic. So that's the moment. I can't wait to hear.
 
John Betancourt: The last question I have for everyone today, what do you think we need to do in our communities to properly support our veterans when they come home.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: So good question, and it's always an uphill battle. The funny thing is, is that there have been changes that have been occurring within policies. I think as recent as 2018 there's like a new policy to kind of have a look at the other than honorable discharges. But at the same time, the veterans are still having a difficult time, like in my in my mind space, right, as soon as you sign the papers, health care, rest of your life, period. Because I am a universal healthcare kind of guy again, regardless, our veterans should get it. I think you know that that would be the change. The other thing too is, especially within the African American community, to try to remove the stigma attached to mental health issues. As Selena mentioned, like even now, when I talk to some members of my family and say, “Hey, you know, I think I need to talk to the therapist, or I have some family members that regularly go to therapists,” but if I talk about it, you know, you do see the smiles and you see the laughter and you like and it's different depending on where you are, you know, like, yeah, big city center, is this a little bit more acceptable than the other spaces and so again, anything that we can do to kind of help, you know, people to accept that it's okay to talk about trauma and to deal with trauma, and to try to get help for trauma and remove that stigma, I think that's something that I would love people to kind of take away and try to change.
 
Karam Salem: Talk about your feelings, yeah, it's okay, yeah. I think because we come from different cultures, it's not okay, you know, it's like. So that opened that sort of conversation, like, it's okay to share your feelings, to your father, to your mother, to your brother, to your wife, you know, to your children, to your children too. And I think that's what I felt, that's what it is for me, is just to be comfortable to talk about your feelings, you know, because it could lead to things that -- it could save lives too, you know, I know, just like, yeah, that's the basic line.
 
Selena Leoni: Right, yeah, like that. And also like, yeah, I think, like, filmmakers are so, like, especially writers, directors, because they are the person that are sometimes telling their own personal story, not to the therapy, but to the whole war, and I personally cannot do that, but it's important for people who don't want to tell their story to the whole world to know that it's okay to talk to someone about it. So that's, like, really important. And the other thing, like, going back to what I was saying before, to like, I think, to learn about stuff instead of, like, running away. Because sometimes I think everyone does that when they just to a certain degree where there's something difficult, you're afraid to, like, go learn about it, or like, solve it. You just try to hide it and hope it will go away. But that doesn't really happen. So sometimes you really just have to learn it and like challenge it and go through it.
 
Karam Salem: To relate. I feel to relate, because, like, if you're not involved, if you don't come from families who have soldiers and stuff like that, like the idea of relate to this, because we're not far away from it. We always think we're far away from it. And I think because of that, we don't put ourself to understand, you know, because it's not we're far away from it, right? So that's, that's the thing is just to be involved and relate to what is happening and be open to understand and learn.
 
Bryant T. Griffin: Before we go, I just want to say, So, super grateful for Karam and Selena and then also my cinematographer, Vito, because we were gonna shoot before the pandemic. The pandemic happened, and that actually gave us time to go through the script, like almost like a full year. So, we knew we had options upon options, and then also, the work is beautiful. And then also, my lead actor, Vincent Washington. He's actually a veteran. He served in the Afghanistan war. And what he brought to the production in terms of professionalism, and as sure, you see in his performance is just incredible. And of course, the rest of the cast, Tarra Riggs, is just amazing. Kirby (Griffin), who plays Fatima, Vaughn (Wilkinson), as Isaiah. So just again, super grateful, because it really is a labor of love. It's total micro budget. You know, everyone did it for the love. And these guys have hung around like, again, for Karam, it’s almost nine years, but, yeah, everyone's given everything to this. And so, it's a real labor of love.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity

Billie Mintz is a highly accomplished filmmaker that has worked on fiction and nonfiction stories. His most recent project, Making Manson, is available to stream on Peacock now, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with Billie to discuss this epic and ambitious docuseries.
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John Betancourt: First off, thank you so much for putting this together. This is, this was quite the impressive docuseries, so much to pour over and so much to think upon. But I'm very curious, first and foremost, what it was that got you involved with this story overall?
 
Billie Mintz: Well, that's interesting, because when you say putting it together, it was a lot of people that put this together, especially right now, over at Renowned Films in the UK, who actually put this together. And they, you know, gave me the honor of being able to work with them and their team, and they found, miraculously, found the 20-year archive of never heard before tapes with Charles Manson, a relationship that nobody had privy to. There was, there's no record of a relationship like this with Manson in, you know, the entire comprehensive Manson that exists in the world. So, yeah, I was tasked with the responsibility to work with an amazing team to help tell the story.
 
John Betancourt: You're right. A lot of work went into this. And all involved deserve credit for showcasing a side of the Manson story we don’t really know about. What was it about that, that compelled you to want to get in the director's chair and really tell this tale?
 
Billie Mintz: You know, my interest always is these stories that we've been told that is part of the cultural psyche that really has shaped who we are. I mean, Charles Manson and these terrible murders and what happened to these people has had such an impact on us as a society. It's like, it was like, sort of our first, you know, media trauma, that every time it's told over and over again, we really retraumatize ourselves, the family members of the victims retraumatize ourselves. And so, I think that this idea that maybe that this story that we've been told is not necessarily the true story. I think that's incredibly important for so many reasons. For us to relook at these narratives, the Charles Manson narrative and other narratives that have shaped us and cause suffering that that we relook at, and having 20 years of archive from Manson, of him, talking candidly about this stuff, is a great gateway into this story that we've never had before.
 
John Betancourt: You bring up a good point that I kind of want to expand upon further. With you being now so close to this case and seeing the angles that you've seen. Why do you think maybe outside of the traumatic portion of it, the Manson case just continues to resonate with us so many years later?
 
Billie Mintz: Well, because he's our first cult leader. And you know, like, I'm not saying he's the first cult leader in the world. I'm sure there were many more beforehand, but he really was the, the first one that presented the idea to us where our consciousness became, “Wow, there's cult leaders. There are cults.” And also, you know, it was a time in life with the counterculture and the hippie movement that we're trying to break out and question life. And here came something along that really just sort of, you know, gets the credit for destroying the hippie movement. I mean, we think of Manson. It's like, it’s no longer is about free love. It's about, you know, murder. And so, I think that, like that really had an impact on us, that we have not gotten over.
 
John Betancourt: Now you had all that material, you had all these tapes, you helped put it together. What kind of challenges as a director went into putting something together that was just so large in scope.
 
Billie Mintz: Well, first of all, context is everything, right? I didn't know anything about the Manson story. I somewhat knew about Helter Skelter and the (Vincent) Bugliosi story, the prosecutor who ended up writing a book and selling billions on this story that not only won the convictions, but that created this, our collective understanding. So it was, how do you tell 20 years of a relationship in these tapes? How do you -- what do you choose? But then also, what do you assume people know, even though, even though this story has been told over and over again, you have to, you have to tell people what happened, even though they've heard it before, but some might not have, and you've got the story that takes place not over just two years of time leading up to the murders, but then 50 years after, at least the trial of like, three or four years afterwards.
 
So how do you do all this in in three episodes? And that that was, that was the most challenging, which we just went back and forth in circles. But what, you know, we landed in a really amazing place, because we had such an amazing team. And also, the executives at Peacock were so involved in in the story as well, and helping guide us with what we were allowed to do and what we were not allowed to do, which was also, you know, there's a lot governing there. Because you're dealing with victims of a crime, and also, you're dealing with the words of somebody who is being known as a serial killer, who was convicted as a killer of Aal these people. So, there was a lot to balance, but I think we found the special sauce.
 
John Betancourt: I agree. At no point did it ever feel like it was leaning away or the other. And that actually is a great time to talk about what went into the decision to offer such an objective and impartial look at a case that people really go on one side or the other.
 
Billie Mintz: Well, I think what's missing in our polarized world right now is the is the art of discourse. We've just, we've completely lost that. We have. You know, we're so split as a society and in our ideology, in our bias that we come into things, and we villainize other people for thinking other, the way we are, and we don't really come to any, you know, solutions as a society, which is what we need. We need to innovate as a society. We need to move forward. So, I think like this… Manson is interesting that like Manson becomes -- and also with documentaries too, like we don't do much documentary-ism in documentaries anymore. We're just sort of telling these stories. The press is the same way.
 
So, I think this was a really great experiment where we take posthumously Manson's words, bring them into a room, bring all the people into the room that have been telling the story for so long, and who have been affected by this. Even you know, one of our subjects is the one of the victims, Steven Parent, his brother, Greg Parent, who grew up with this terrible thing that happened to his family, to his brother, this terrible story that he'd been told. And we bring them all into a room to engage, engage with Manson, and engage with this story, and engage with me, because, you know, I'm asking the questions, and I think it just shows that, you know, we do not need to spoon feed people. We are all grown-ups. We're all conscious beings, and it's really important that people will walk away with different understandings. And I think that's what makes a successful story, not telling you this is what the way I want you to think.
 
John Betancourt: What do you hope people do take away from this story?
 
Billie Mintz: I think we just need to keep looking back at our stories that we're telling, the stories that continue to harm us. This is a story that harms us about a cult leader, who brainwashes people and is able to control people's minds and I don't think that does us any service, trying to understand why these people lost their lives. And I think when you stay in some sort of fantastical story, you're not healing. You're not finding closure. And what I would love people to walk away with is some closure around such a terrible part of our history. And I would like the family members, the surviving family members of the people who had lost their loved ones. To watch this and learn a little more that maybe they didn't know about in in this gruesome retelling of the story that's always been told.
 
John Betancourt: I think one of the advantages of where you sit in the director's chair, is that you know, you get to take away some unique perspective for yourself. What surprised you the most about this story as it unfolded and came together?
 
Billie Mintz: You know, the one thing that always comes to my mind is just like… this iconography around Manson. And when we think about Manson, we think about this bearded guy, this bearded cult, hippie cult leader. And, you know, one of the things he said that is just so, sort of like, it seems so trivial, but this man never had a beard, up until the moment we saw him with a beard. Like we think about this guy with a beard who, like, led this cult. And you know, that's our image of Charles Manson, but he never had a beard. He's from, like, the 1950s he's not he was much older, and he was like, in his 30s in the hippie generation. Most hippies were like teenagers and early 20s. And this guy was a guy who never had a beard. And the reason why he had a beard was because they didn't give him a razor when he was in jail. And so, he when he comes out, and we first, we don't have any documentation of Manson before the murders, before he was caught after the murders.
 
And so, our impression of Manson is this, like bearded hippie cult leader. And when you learn that he never had a beard, I think that opens up, you know, it's an epiphany, and it opens up a whole new understanding of not just what actually happened, but what we were told then happened, and how we ourselves are not just -- we're not just necessarily manipulated by Manson but manipulated by the media. And I think, like that's the biggest thing, is the way the media manipulates us. And I think that's where documentary filmmaking has a great responsibility and continues to have, especially with Peacock, because we did the same thing with Selena and Yolanda: The Secrets Between Them, the other documentary that we made, is that us to really try to understand, in all things going on, in all things that have happened, how have we ourselves been manipulated?
 
John Betancourt: You know, that's a really, really good point, because my introduction to Manson was that exact photo that you displayed in the documentary, where it's just the crazy eyes and the hair and everything, and I do appreciate, obviously, they know that you don't humanize him necessarily, but that you do just present a complete picture.
 
Billie Mintz: Yeah, I don't want, I'm not trying to get sympathy for Manson, and I don't think humanizing Manson necessarily leads to sympathy. It's just like it's a better understanding of what happened, who Manson was, and why this happened, that that will serve us so much more than this cartoon, cardboard character that we've created. You know, humanizing is important because, you know, regardless of what people have done or what has happened, like we need to understand the humanity behind it.
 
John Betancourt: I think what I appreciated the most, was the fact that you gave us, you gave us a perspective into his childhood, which I don't think anybody's ever really covered before. I didn't know about it. So that was very educational for me to know that A led to B, led to C, and this is probably the most comprehensive look at the Manson case and Charles Manson period, which is a wonderful thing. What are you hoping the legacy of this is going to be?
 
Billie Mintz: Makes me think of what Tyson just talked about regarding legacy. Did you see that video that's going viral of Tyson talking about legacy?
 
John Betancourt: I did. I know exactly what you’re talking about.
 
Billie Mintz: Now I'm afraid to talk about legacy, because Tyson, you know, he has, he has that way about him. The question is, is what I just think that we will… after we watch this show, I want us to go back and watch other interviews with Manson, other shows with Manson. Watch everything. Watch the comprehensive Manson of the mythological Manson, the collective Manson that we've gone to learn, and now with this sort of further insight, go back and watch, rewatch everything. And I think there'll be more of a discernment into what is the ridiculous, what could be true and what could not be true, and what actually like just watching the interviews Manson gives, these cryptic interviews throughout the ages that like you just think he's talking crazy talk, which he is. But now, knowing what we know now, from watching Making Manson, he was dropping a lot of bombs that went over our heads, definitely went over the interviewers’ heads. And I think that if anything this series could do, is be a sort of a decoder to not just Manson but the Manson story.
 
John Betancourt: The last question I have for you today, what did you ultimately take away from what you learned about Charles Manson?
 
Billie Mintz: You know, I feel I'm being a little repetitive, but that that everybody, I don't, I don't want to use the word deserves, but everybody should have an opportunity for people making any judgment, like anything that says about it, to have their own -- make sure they have all of the information, or at least know that they're missing some of the information before being stuck in their ideology of what is truth, really like, we need to decipher what have we been told and what could be untrue about what we've been told.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.