An Interview with Josh Fagin & Greg O’Connor, Creators of ‘The Space Within’

Josh Fagin and Greg O’Connor are a pair of accomplished writers and producers that have worked on some important films and franchises throughout the years. Such as Pride and Glory and Law and Order: Organized Crime. Currently, they are the creators and writers of the new Audible Original, The Space Within and we here at NTG were lucky enough to sit down with both of them to discuss how their new project came to life.
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John Betancourt: Let’s talk about each of your roles in bringing this story to life.

Josh Fagin: Well, you know, Greg and I have a very symbiotic relationship. We've collaborated for many years together and I don't know that our roles are necessarily so delineated, they seem to sort of become clear to us, once we're inside of something, and we, we had just a wonderful experience working together and building the story, which is, you know, just has been a real treasure for us to sort of watch it come to life.

Greg O’Connor: I would add to that, I think, you know, like Josh was saying it’s like, it's very kind of organic, I think, in this case, we, we sort of found a couple of things that we were interested in. And I think both of us are kind of interested in exploring kind of, like bigger ideas. And so, we thought, you know, talking about certain things that we sort of were interested in, the context of a person who was a psychiatrist, and was, you know, sort of stumbled on to what could potentially be a patient who had been abducted by aliens and how that changed her life, was something that came sort of through just a bunch of conversations that we had. And then there's actually a character that we, we thought was sort of interesting, a guy named John Mack who, you know, was sort of a Harvard psychologist who, who had dealt with a sort of a similar thing, although his story is very different than ours, we just thought that that as a seed of an idea that would be kind of an interesting.

And of course, we made it a woman and just allowed us to explore, you know, a bunch of different things that we're interested in. And I guess, from a process standpoint, you know, like Josh was saying, it's like, there's no, you know, no roles, particularly for one or the other, I think we just kind of like, brainstorm ideas, and then start to outline it. And, you know, we found that in this case, it really captured our attention and our, you know, our interest, so we just, we just went with it, and, and sort of, you know, found a story in it. And that's kind of how it happened. And then from there, you know, then it just becomes the, you know, taking of this kind of idea, that's an outline of an idea, kind of broad sketches and becoming, you know, turning it into something that is more tangible, and then ultimately, through a screenplay, and then through a series.

Josh Fagin: I will also say, it was very important for us, you know, when we, when we started the process, we knew inherently what this wanted to be, which is a very emotionally grounded story, a sci-fi mystery thriller, I think Greg and I both sort of our, our sort of storytelling instincts collectively is to do things that remain sort of grounded, and that there is a kind of inherent truth. And even though we are sort of moving into sort of genre waters, and wading into kind of, you know, a world that has been sort of explored in, you know, in many permutations, that for us, it was crucial to sort of stick to a very kind of character driven emotionally resonant thriller, you know, using the sort of engine of a mystery to sort of pull us through the story.

So, you know, the things that begin to kind of inform the story for us, you know, find their own sort of inner life as we're moving through the process of it. And that was a great, I have to say, it's a great discovery for both of us to really watch this thing become what it is, and sort of, you know, evolve. And very often I think, for us, when we're sort of dealing with characters, especially the Madeline Wild character, who Jessica Chastain plays, it was really important for us to sort of, you know, stay true to who that character wanted to be throughout the story and her own sort of strong sense of conviction and belief. And we both love the idea of characters who were sort of up against the kind of bigger institutional forces and so that that as the kind of driver for the story was, was somebody that we knew from the very beginning and how these things began to take shape, I think, for us, is really the joy. You know, it's such a joy in sort of creating things and sort of storytelling, and it's, it's, you know, the process itself is a mystery.

John Betancourt: With all that in mind, what was it that really inspired this story’s creation?

Gregory O’Connor: Yeah, again, I think we were, we were you know,  Josh and I were interested in writing something, and we're looking at ideas, and there was something that both captured us about telling the story of a doctor who, you know, comes from a place of science and, you know, would be kind of, in a way, the last person to sort of believe in something like this, and would have to sacrifice her own sort of convictions and, you know, the, the sort of world that she lived in this kind of academic world that she lived in, to pursue some kind of a truth. And we just love the idea that there was this kind of otherworldly thing that was out there that might, you know, might actually be real. And I think, as Josh was saying, I think it's so important for us to be, you know, really mindful of like, you know, staying within her truth, how would she deal with this? How would anybody deal with this, if they didn't really believe that this is possible, but something kept pulling them something, you know, had them wanting to, you know, just not dismiss it out of hand, but want to, you know, explore it further? And I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere in that was just something that fascinated both of us. And, and I think that, you know, I can speak for me personally, you know, I probably, since I was a kid, I've always had an interest in, you know, kind of what's out there. You know, is it possible that alien, you know, life or intelligent life out there was real. And so, it was a way for us to explore that without being really on the nose about it. And, you know, being mindful of, you know, all the things that have been done, as Josh said, you know, in the past, and some of the tropes that we you know, that we would have to be, you know, careful of not treading.

So, I think it was that. I think it was that, you know, this character and her sort of, like pursuing something that was outside of her belief system, and then we loved the idea of sort of making that, you know, this possibility of, of other life or something, otherworldly. And, and just again playing a very truthfully, I think that was really the, I guess, the sort of the seed of it, and then from that, it's like, “Okay, where would we take this after that? If that's the story, where would it go?” And, yeah, I think it just grabbed both of us, somehow. The thing is, it's a little bit of alchemy, you know, you just never know what's gonna grab you, and there are great stories out there, that just may not be the thing that grabs you. And for some reason, you know, I think some of our sensibilities, you know, tend to be very similar, and it just interested both of us and, and so I think the, the enthusiasm of one helps to drive the enthusiasm and the other as well, you know, and I think then we start to feed off each other, and that's what, you know, that's kind of how it all started.

Josh Fagin: Yeah, you know, I think, you know, for me, you know, having grown up, you know, watching movies, like Close Encounters, or having read the book Contact at a pretty young age, you know, I think as young, sort of dreamers, you're kind of hardwired in a way to sort of, like, live with these, these stories. And I think what happens inevitably, is you get to a certain point in your life, and you began to kind of contemplate the, you know, the possibility of it, I don't think that that's something that ever really goes away, there is an inherent sense of wonder that we were very mindful of tapping into and I think, look, I think we are also at a point where, you know, we're sort of at these crossroads, and much of our story touches on genetics and science, hard science, and, you know, and builds in themes of redemption and loss and, and grief, and, you know, there's a sort of soul to this character, who, as she begins to sort of embark on this journey realizes that, you know, that there is something, you know, perhaps, you know, out in the universe that is, you know, goes beyond our sort of everyday existence.

And I think that sort of revelation for our Maddie character really begins to sort of spin her in a different direction and opens our eyes and hopefully our audience's eyes to the possibility of it and what it really means. There's something that we were very diligent about in the sort of the writing process that we had sort of used the kind of mandate of “what if?”, often, as a kind of mantra, you know, and sort of held ourselves to this kind of, you know, this possibility that, you know, this is all true, what if this is really happening and how would the characters behave and how would they react? And how would they interact? You know, and for Jessica's character, how would she interact professionally and personally and so out of that, somewhat organically we built this kind of constellation of characters who are sort of orbiting around our Maddie character, each of whom had their own sort of set of relationships that we had to kind of contend with, you know, as we sort of move forward in the story, and again, sort of dancing with, you know, these ideas of, of science and, and, you know, big themes, explorations of loss and, and our belief systems being tested. But you know, really sort of set that against the big sort of realer and a mystery, which is really what sort of drives our story.

John Betancourt: Now, of the many messages and themes present, what’s the one you hope audiences take away?

Josh Fagin: You know, I would love for the audience to sort of be pulled into, you know, a sort of internal dialogue that sort of allows, you know, allows the listener to, to really kind of open their, minds and their hearts up. So much of what Maddie's character allows us to do is sort of begin to see the world through an evolving lens. I think, you know, I think in the world that we live in now, we tend to sort of, you know, see the world through a very kind of narrow lens, and so much of what the story allows us to do is watch a kind of evolution of perspective. So that, you know, as the mystery is unfolding, as Maddie gets closer, as the walls are closing in on her, and she begins to discover the sort of the revelation of what may or may not be happening, it's important for the audience to sort of go on this journey with her and begin to sort of, you know, allow their own sort of minds and hearts to begin to evolve with her, if we can sort of, you know, by the end of this story, build, you know, a sense of compassion for the audience, for these characters who have gone through these seemingly traumatic experiences, you know, then I feel like we've sort of, we've done what we set out to do, you know, and not just sort of think about a story that, you know, incredibly challenges us, I think, intellectually, but also makes us feel.

Greg O’Connor: I think it's not so much underlined in season one, but I think what we were going for, to Josh's point earlier, is this sort of sense of wonder, and what you're going to start to see is some of these people who, you know, have been abducted, go through some transformational process. And we think that that is sort of, you know, analogous in a way to some kind of like a, you know, the transformational process that people can go through… is their sort of consciousness gets raised. And, obviously, we’re externalizing that a lot of ways. But I think that I think it was really, really important for us that you start to see these people transform in a really beautiful way. And, and what I think you'll start to see as the story unfolds, is that there's a small group of people, small-ish group of people that maybe feel like they're outsiders. And I think that's, that is meant to be representative of all of us who kind of feel like we maybe are outside of the norm, that there's something wrong with us that there may be people looking at us differently.

And I think you'll start to see that as the story as the story unfolds, going forward, that there's a group of these people that sort of represent, you know, those people in society that that feel that way, and that how their transformation into something that is, you know, kind of outside the norm, but, expands on what their possibility is for them, seeing maybe something that was buried deep inside of them. You see that with Rose a little bit, she was somebody who was very, very, you know, repressed and how something is coming out in her, and we'll see that with other characters. That I think was really, really important for us also, that this is not a story about aliens attacking you know, the earth, we still don't know whether they’re good or bad, or there, you know, obviously, there's going to be, you know, uncertainty about what this is all where this is all going. And that's important, but it's not like, it’s certainly not War of the Worlds or anything like that. That's not what we're going for. And so, a lot of it is about like, you know, how people who maybe feel alienated or people who feel like they’re on the outside, sort of become empowered in some way. And I think that was really important for us in sort of telling the story as well.

John Betancourt: What are you each most proud of when it comes to this story?

Greg O’Connor: I would say the thing I'm most proud of is the cast that we got. I mean, I still, like, you know, sometimes have to, like blink and try to, you know, it's hard to believe sometimes that we got this kind of level of cast. So, I would say that that's the thing that I'm probably most proud of that, that the material attracted the kind of cast that was, you know, as, as interested in being part of telling the story. And when you write something that, you know, that people respond to, I think it's, it's the most gratifying, and I would say, that's probably the thing that, you know, I'm most proud of.

Josh Fagin: Yeah, you know, like, for me, it's the sort of thing that sort of gets, you know, lies sort of dormant in your, your waking life and your dreams and, you know, begins to sort of find a life, this idea that we've, you know, created, this tapestry of characters who are kind of orbiting around one another and have built this sort of, you know, this this rich kind of mystery. As a canvas for telling, you know, a story is, is, you know, it's always a sort of Herculean task, I think when you approach this and you go, how do you how do you carve out eight episodes and sort of tell it a very satisfying tale that is going to sort of make people feel and think. But I think the, the real gift is when, when you have performers who are sort of bringing life to your words, and your ideas and your thoughts and your feelings and, and add something to that, and, you know, working with collaborators, you know, wonderful sound designers, composers and editors who all contributed in their own way. And help us build this thing that really kind of came to life for us. That… to me… is, you know, it's truly a gratifying thing to come to this point. It's, it's really, you know, it's, we're very fortunate to be here.

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

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