An Interview with Esther Smith & Rafe Spall from ‘Trying’

Esther Smith and Rafe Spall are a pair of accomplished actors that have spent the past couple of years moving audiences as Nikki Newman and Jason Ross in the Apple TV+ series, Trying. All by earnestly playing a pair of characters that are desperate to enjoy the wonder of parenthood and with season three of this magnificent series upon us, we had the opportunity to talk with Esther and Rafe, regarding their characters and the importance of this poignant series.

John Betancourt: I would love to know, what it means to each of you to be part of such a poignant and relevant show.

Esther Smith: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost like the scripts in itself, I find really special, I think they're incredibly moving. Full of heart, full of honesty on a subject matter, which is, you know, true for a lot of people. So, it's important to kind of, I think, get that script and represent it in the most kind of honest way. Andy does that so brilliantly. And he adds this brilliant bit of humor, that was like a bonus anyway, having that script, but then on top of like, making it and it coming out, having the interaction with fans through social media, who either are going through this process or have been through this process or having infertility troubles or going through IVF, all of this, their kind comments have meant so much, it really is… that in itself just feels like “wow,” to be able to have that connection. And that in into people's lives where they feel like they're being represented or comforted, or they're not feeling like they're on their own in that journey. That has felt so special. And like nothing can take that I think away from us within this. It’s so real. Yeah. A privilege, actually.

Rafe Spall: It's great to be in a show that people like because, you know, I've been in plenty of things that people don't really like, and you do, like things that I've had really good time doing, and then it comes out and no one cares. So, it's really, it's really good to have the quality of the finished product reflect the enjoyment that we had in making it and, and even further to that, that this is a show that, you know, people who like it, don't just like it, they love it, that means a lot.

John Betancourt: Now I’ve noticed this series works a lot with specific themes and messages. Season one was about that quest to see if Nikki and Jason are ready to be parents, and season two was about preparing oneself to be a parent. What would you say, season three’s theme is?

Rafe Spall: I guess it could be summed up in like, be careful what you wish for, right? When you're like confronted with it, with what it is that you've wanted so much, you can have a sort of unrealistic expectation, you've painted a picture of it, if you wanted something for so long… adopting a kid. Not only do you get to do one, but you get the possibility of two, double the fun, and it invariably isn't going to be what you imagined it was going to be like, and so, to try and make peace with the disparity between one's expectation and reality of a situation… makes for a rich landscape full of touching moments, heartfelt moments, humor, comedy, jeopardy. So, I think that's what sums it up, the difference between what it is you expected and what it is you have.

Esther Smith: I was gonna say the same thing. I was like “expectation versus reality.” So, then you go and say it.

Rafe Spall: Well, I just came up with that right now. And you're not… blown away by it? (Laughter from all)

Esther Smith: No, I think it's exactly that. Expectation versus rather the expectation of being a parent versus actually what it means when it's presented directly in front of you and how you manage that. As a human being just thrown into the deep end with these two, kind of, you know, fully formed humans who have their own opinions, they have their own way of thinking and trying to bond with them. Yeah, expectation versus reality.

John Betancourt: Now to expand on that a little further, in a spoiler-free manner of course, now that they are seemingly close to what they want, what would you say Nikki and Jason are searching for in season three?

Esther Smith: I guess it's… that's so tricky because they don't necessarily still have what they want. It's not a full guarantee of theirs. And as much as they can, you know, they're trying to live a day to day where they're imagining that life, playing that role. There is still, if by the end of it, they don't get these children that kind of, the fall from that, the heartbreak from that, because they are so invested. I feel like they've always been invested like to this process, but now they have these two children that are living in their house, they're forming bonds with them, they're living like a daily life with them. If that's not to work out for them, then that's… like the heartbreak of that, you know, would be huge. So, it's, it's tricky, because I guess they still haven't fully, there's still fully no guarantee that that is the life that they're going to have as within this series. And we'll only kind of find out through the exploring of it, whether it's something that they'll have.

Rafe Spall: I guess they're searching for approval, I suppose, approval from the local authority, approval from the children, approval from each other. And approval from you know, from themselves not to get to sort of lofty, but like, they really want to be good people, they're really trying to be good people. And sometimes they get so caught up in trying that they, they lose themselves a little bit. But the central tenet in the middle of this show is love and connection. They love each other so much. That they want to see that manifest in the love for a child and two… as it turns out for them. And so, they want to connect, they want to love each other, they want to spread love, they want to do the right thing. And their intentions are wholly, wholly, good.

John Betancourt: What would each of you say you’re most proud of when it comes to your time on this show?

Rafe Spall: I'm most proud of my time with Esther, and that I've never felt such a connection with another performer. Especially when it comes to creating a believable world. And I've never, you know, there's Jason, there's Nikki, and then there's the organic character, which is their relationship which exists between two of them. People often comment on the chemistry that we have with each other. And I'm really pleased that people enjoy it, but… they won't enjoy it as much as we do. You know? As performers, that feels like, you know, people talk about any sort of flow state, that you get when you're aligned spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and you're not thinking of anything else other than the thing that you're doing. Whether it's writing an article or gardening or whatever. Like, for me, I achieve the true flow state sometimes through performing. And with Esther like… it's like we have this sort of telepathic communication with each other when we're acting with each other. And we had that the first day that we auditioned. And that's hard to find. And it's the only time I've ever found it. And I'm really, really grateful for that. I'm really proud of it.

Esther Smith: I actually have that with everyone, Rafe. (Laughter from all)

Rafe Spall: Everyone? Ollie and all that?

Esther Smith: Everyone. Imelda, Ollie, Mickey, Eaton, two kids. No, I mean, yeah, similarly, similarly without, you know, repeating but it's, yeah, it's been made special. I think for like; I think for me for that reason. That, you know, I can remember on our very first day where we met each other. We had this, we had this chemistry read and they're always nerve wracking because you're trying to prove to people, that you don't know, that you've got chemistry with someone that you've never met before, that you don't know. And that’s… it's always slightly, it's a terrifying thing. Particularly with a script that you love, and it will, you know, can fall like on a knife edge either way, depending on that relationship you have with someone. But me and Rafe met before our chemistry read and just really got on, and it was such a relief. And it's been so lovely to continue that journey. But you know, everyone wants to go to work, and it be a nice experience. You want to enjoy the job that you do inevitably, like, there are moments, particularly in filming, there are really long days, days that can feel like really long and hard. There are really early starts, but I always enjoy going to work. And that's, you know, that's just that's exactly what you want. And yeah, I get to work with one of my best friends. So that's lovely.

John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what are hoping audiences are going to take away from this new season?

Esther Smith: I hope they take away a feeling of warmth. I hope they find it funny as the other series. I hope they take away from it… maybe a sentiment just to… I was gonna say “just to keep ‘Trying!’” (Laughter) Yeah, but to have hope. Life is hard and life throws you so many curveballs. Like so unexpectedly, but they're all good lessons to be learned within those curveballs and that you… yeah. You just got to keep going.

Rafe Spall: I think because I'm doing To Kill a Mockingbird at the moment in the West End, Aaron Sorkin's version, and one of the last lines of the play is: “Trying to do the right thing, is the right thing.” And I think that, that, that works for this: “Trying to do the right thing is the right thing.” And also, rather cleverly involves the name of the show! (Laughter from all)

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

---