Season 2 of Kold x Windy on ALBLK wrapped up the other day on the network, but we have so much more coverage to bring you. Starting with a grand discussion about all things season two, courtesy of our interview with the actors who play Malika ‘Kold’ Wise, and Renee ‘Windy’ Johnston, Sh’Kia Augustin and Nijah Brenea.
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John Betancourt: I'd like to start by getting to know what it means to each of you to be back for a second season.
 
Sh’Kia Augustin: It's an amazing experience. Um, just, basically, we just got off a strike a year ago, and a lot of shows didn't make it to another season. A lot of shows were canceled. So that's always a fear as an actor, that your show's gonna get canceled, or that you're just, you're just not going to be working. Like your parents tell you not to get into this career, because it's just not stable. So, you don't really get into this career for stability. So, the fact that we got a season two, I think, is it's just a blessing. It's a testament that somebody does believe in the show, the network believes in the show, they believe in us. So, I'm just, I'm filled with nothing but gratitude that we get to continue to work and get to, you know, continue these stories with these characters, because I feel like we do have something special and just the bond that we've been able to create as actors, as castmates. I think it's just been an amazing experience to be able to continue on this journey.
 
Nijah Brenea: Yes, yes, especially at a time where a lot of shows are getting canceled, like, big shows are getting canceled. So, it just makes you feel like, “Oh no, like, are we next? Are we going?” So, the fact that, like she said, clearly, like the network, people watching it, you know, people saying, “where's season two?” Or “I'm so happy it's back.” Like, that feels really good. And we are -- we have chose a career that, like it is full of ups and downs you just never know. So, it feels really, really good, same, filled with gratitude. I'm very happy.
 
John Betancourt: That's wonderful, and you deserve to be back. Now the first time we talked, we spoke a little bit about how complex and how tough your characters can be to play, sometimes just because of the tough decisions they make in the world they live in. And I'm very curious, since there was a slight break in getting back to the show, was it hard to return to the minds of Kold and Windy?
 
Nijah Brenea: I would say it wasn't. I don't think it was a switch that I had to, like, try to cut back on and get back in because it had been such a long time, and then an even longer time, because it we had a strike in between. So, like, I wasn't stretching that muscle as much, because it's like, everything's kind of shut down. And, I mean, just to be honest, sometimes even trying to stretch the muscle just felt like, “Oh, what's going on? What's next?” Like, it's a whole strike going on. So, but once I got into it, it was, I would say, kind of like riding a bike. Like, it's like, okay, getting more familiar, listening to the music, reading the lines. It's like, something that I had done before. So, it was definitely like, nice to get back into and even though it did come quick, I still just basically moved away all plans. It just became all about preparing for Kold x Windy to make sure I have enough time.
 
Sh’Kia Augustin: I agree. I think, I think the analogy like riding a bike is perfect. Once I found out the show was renewed, I was a little nervous, because I was like, “Oh my God, who is Kold? Who is this character I have to play?” But then I binged season one, and after watching it again, it felt like, “Okay. I think I know who this is. I think I remember.” And then I feel like, once I got the scripts, it was the bicycle. It was like, “Okay, okay. I remember this dialogue,” especially since we had the same writers. I'm sure maybe if we had different writers, that might have felt tricky, because sometimes season to season, writers will change, and you're kind of trying to figure out this, this new style of writing. But since we had the same exact writers from season one, Kenny Young wrote the first episode again, we were we were back into it. Just… it just clicked instantly. Um, even though the characters probably were emotionally in different places, I think having the same character as having Gege, having Windy, it all made everything feel more familiar.
 
John Betancourt: Now something brought up here is the fans, and their dedication to the show, and I’m curious why you think this series resonates so well with audiences?
 
Sh’Kia Augustin: I think, it resonates firstly, because Kold and Windy are best friends, and everybody has at least one best friend, one person that they confide in, or at least used to have someone that they confided in. And I think Kold and Windy’s relationship is familiar to people. I think they have a sisterly bond, but I… think it's not perfect, and I think that's why people ultimately love to watch TV, because I think TV kind of depicts all aspects of the relationship. It shows the good, the bad, the ugly. So, I think people resonate with their relationship, but I think they also resonate with the familiar, familial aspect of having Gege around, having this motherly character that even though Kold and Windy are sometimes reckless and crazy, they have a motherly figure that is around, kind of always talking sense into them, always trying to get them back on track. And even though they can be reckless in terms of the street life that they have, they have Gege, which kind of shows a softer side to both of them, even like, you don't see Windy cry, but when she's with Gege, that's when you see the tears come out. So, I think it, I think it humanizes the characters in a deep way.
 
Nijah Brenea: Yeah, I definitely think that the characters seem like, raw and vulnerable. Sometimes people are crying, they're laughing, they're arguing. I feel like, if they haven't experienced it themselves, they know of someone that has and everything, just like life isn't glitz and glam. So, you know, like on the show, technically, in the TV world, the cameras are always rolling, so you're seeing the good, the bad, the ugly, like we have the -- it's really good. I think it's really important, especially in times of social media now, where they show scenes of somebody doing something on social media, and then as soon as they click in, it's like the snap back into reality. Because we all have been there, like we all have been there. And I think that part is super relatable in times where like, social media has like, taken over the world.
 
John Betancourt: So as actors, obviously, you had to find the voice in season one for your characters. In season two, what did you do as actors to further enhance the wonder of these characters?
 
Sh’Kia Augustin: I would say for season two. Personally, I… I dealt with loss. I lost my grandmother during Covid. So, I think when Malika lost Marlon, even though I didn't lose my grandmother to gang violence. I feel like that loss is still very, very prevalent in me. And a lot of times when I was reading scenes, and especially the scenes where she's talking about Marlon or thinking about Marlon, it just resonated with me personally. Because I think regardless of how you lose someone, loss impacts us. It changes us. It… makes us look at life differently. And I think because of the loss I experienced, I was able to empathize with Malika, especially losing someone unexpectedly, losing someone that you thought was going to be there long term, or at least longer than they were. So, I think a lot of people in the audience can relate to losing somebody, and that was something I was able to personally tap into.
 
Um, the only difference was the rage I needed to show from Malika was a lot different, because I personally, like I said, if you lose someone to gang violence, I'm sure you're a lot, a lot more angrier at the process because someone took that person's life, as opposed to someone dying from natural causes. So just kind of trying to tap into, “Okay, I can't relate to this directly, but I know what it means to be angry. I know what it means to be upset and kind of thinking about how I would feel if another person literally took someone from me, how, how would I react?” Maybe I might not go out in the streets looking for them. But what does that… what does that experience look like if I do just go all crazy and decide, “No, I want to find this person?” So just tapping into that that emotional space was difficult, but I thought it was, it was easy because I could empathize with someone who might be in that situation.
 
Nijah Brenea: I think on the contrary, I was able to have a little bit more fun, because I feel like I really had to tap into Windy's, oblivion. Like Nijah in real life, would acknowledge the flames around her and the issues and things like that. And Windy isn't… she doesn't do it really much in season one, but I feel like in season two, she really is just laser and hyper focusing on the good, even though the good really isn't that great. So, because of that, I was able to like to have a little bit of fun, I felt almost like the Joker in some instances, like just laughing and having a great time when it's just like, you are crazy, but it's just like, having fun. So, I that's what I feel like I tapped into, like I'm reading, and it's like so many scenes of like this person saying this is wrong, or this is going on, and then my lines are just kind of like, “Okay, so what? Let's rap, let's get money.” And it's just like, “Okay, you're just going to act like nothing.” So, for me, it was a little bit more fun.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, one of the best parts of watching this show, are the messages it carries, and I’m curious what you hope audiences take away from season two?
 
Sh’kia Augustin: I hope they can take from season two just learning how to grieve. And I think Malika isn't just grieving the loss of Marlon. She's grieving the loss of her son, even though he isn't he hasn't passed away. He's been taken from her. And I think she's also preemptively grieving her relationship with Windy, because their relationship is, is slowly severing. It's falling apart every scene; it's getting worse and worse and worse. So, I think, I hope people can take from this show just learning how to grieve in a healthy way. I don't, I don't recommend following Malika's path. I think she's grieving it in the worst way. Um, but learning. Learning how to grieve relationships, learning when to let go of relationships, learning when to move on. I think a lot of times, we as people, hold on a lot longer than we probably should. And I think Malika is in a place where she just hasn't, she hasn't let go of anything yet, and we're kind of seeing the chaos that is resulting from that. So, I hope people can at least take that from the show and kind of learning how to discern how these characters can be inspiring, but also learning when not to follow these characters as well.
 
Nijah Brenea: I agree. I hope that people take from this season to learn how to be there for your friends a little bit more when they are grieving and going through things, even though it is very positive to look at the glass as half full, you still need to acknowledge some of the emptiness in the glass as well. Like, you can’t be so optimistic that it's unrealistic. So, I hope it reminds people to stay grounded, to prevent from things that could happen if you do not handle issues. So definitely don't advise, like, taking the Windy approach, like we see after they get the record deal, Kold blatantly lays out reasons why she's not the happiest. And I'm like, I “Cheers” to the baby stomach. Like that is like, “What?” that wasn't the best way to go about that. You know, I'm saying, like, it's like, she skips over being there for her and is just like, “I'll just be happy.” And it's like, “Well, can you just sit with me for a minute?” I think it's important, like, when people lose people, to like, don't be so quick to be like, “Everything's okay. They're in a better place.” But really sit with the depth, that they have lost someone.
 
John Betancourt: Um, obviously, there's a lot you've taken from this role, a lot from this series. What has been the most satisfying part of being a part of Kold x Windy?
 
Nijah Brenea: The most satisfying? Oh, my. There's so many things. Well, I'll say, I can say, to sum it up, I guess growing with, like, the cast, the production, like growing with people in the studio, like, it's starting to feel like family. Like, it literally feels like a family getting together and working together. So, I really appreciate that.
 
Sh’Kia Augustin: I agree. I feel like the most satisfying is, honestly what happens before and after cut. It's like being in the makeup room and being close with the makeup artist and the hairstylist, and just feeling like you're in an environment where you just went to the salon and get your hair done, and you're not preparing for a show, you're just hanging out with family, the relationship I've built with Nijah has been amazing. To be able to be like, “Oh no, this is, this is my work friend,” but this has actually become a friend in real life. I think that makes this career a lot more enjoyable. Getting along with the writers and the producers and the directors, and feeling like the directors value your opinion, and you can actually share your thoughts on the story with them. I feel like this, this career could be miserable if you don't get along with the people you work with, if you just, if you're just on set, because you're on set for 14 hours, sometimes that's a long – that’s more than a regular nine to five.
 
You're on set for a very long time, and if you don't like the people you work with, if you don't enjoy the material, if you don't enjoy the space, you're in, it could it could become a very miserable, very miserable experience. So, to be able to actually be able to send Nijah a text, first thing in the morning, “You here yet? Hey, where you at?” Or just stopping by her trailer and just talking during lunch, or just texting during lunch about how good the food was today. Having those experiences, makes the day so much better, because the weight of the material is… it's heavy, and sometimes I just got out of a scene crying, and I could go to a dark place and start thinking about my grandmother and thinking about how sad life is, but the fact that when we cut me and Nijah can, you know, crack jokes or talk about something funny on set, makes the day go by so much smoother, because it makes a huge difference.
 
Nijah Brenea: It does.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity. Stream All Episodes of 'Kold x Windy' at allblk.tv 

John Betancourt: I’d love to know what it means to each of you to be part of such a unique project?

Amira Casar: Well, absolutely exciting, because there's an arc, you know, as my friend Lambert was saying, and that the characters who are dealing with pain, loneliness, solitude, are they valid? Are they still valid? How long will they be valid? How long will they last? What's the process of their life? Is this dynamic in this relationship going to work? You know, I feel often that when they take their clothes off, these characters are very lonely, Vincent, certainly lonely, you know, and I think it's actually very isolating, and you freak out if you're a muse, you know, because you know, there's a time limit on that, and you know there is a time limit when you play a muse. So, they are very interesting dynamics within all of these characters who are all suffering. And again, we're dealing with social factors, with bourgeoisie, aristocracy, that he (Vincent) incorporates, and he is a sort of Pygmalion to me. So, I think that was a very fascinating dynamic to work on together.

Lambert Wilson: I will tell you one thing very quickly, one of the last times I went to America, and I was meeting agents, the first questions that they asked you, “are you ready to do a series? And I would say, “Oh, no.” Because series, for me meant being away from home, doing things in America or, you know, in Canada or wherever. And I just, I would say no, and I would see the curtain falling in their eyes, you know, like, “Okay, ouch. We can't work with him.” And now I've discovered the pleasure of being on a series, which is the number of scenes that you do if you have a leading role, you know you have so many possibilities of acting, different things. You meet several directors. You will get the intake from several directors. That's fabulous. You live all these months with your character, and you have the promise that maybe there will be another season, so that you can develop the arc of your character. And so, it's super exciting, and I'm such a fool for not having accepted before, because I actually… I thought it was just exciting. Because in a film, a feature film, yes, you might have the lead, you might have a number of scenes to perform, but if you have a lead in a series, you have more scenes to perform. You evolve. And it's like, it's like a leading role, but that it goes on and--

Amira Casar: It’s very much the actor’s medium, don’t you think?

Lambert Wilson: I love it. I don't know why I was so dreading it. I know why… I love this one because it was being filmed in my hometown. Because if you're six months -- now, that's a little question that we could talk about one day. If you're away from your home for six months, and your family and you're, you know, in a foreign town, it can be tricky. The life of actors can sometimes be a little bit more difficult.

Amira Casar: But we got to travel also with this one, and we got to see the best of France, because it's all about quality. It's all about maintaining artisanry. It's all about maintaining a tradition that Pearl and Vic and Van Sant are trying to hang on to, that's been in the family for 150 years. But that is something that's still alive today in France, because they're so brilliant at, you know, artisan, that they've got some of the best craftsmen in France. And they used to be able to know how to make everything without exporting it elsewhere. So, this is something that this has to be homemade, “Made in France,” and to create to keep this family house from splitting, keeping it as an entity, and that is something that they're both fighting for with, with different shifts, you know, but it could happen anywhere. It's all it's also about family feuds, tension, tragedy, loneliness, you know, everyone is shattered inside, really. Basically, they're all highly strung and living intense lives and having to survive.

This week’s episode of The Anonymous on USA Network featured another surprising exit. Since Lilly decided, the time had come to send Xavier packing to better her chances of winning the game, and to properly bid Xavier farewell, we sat down with him to discuss his experiences on the show.
 
John Betancourt: I would love to know how you became involved with the show.
 
Xavier E. Prather: I saw a casting producer friend of mine kind of post about this new concept of a show. I was like, “Oh, dang, that looks brilliant.” So, I told him. I was like, “Hey, if this is something that actually happens, like, let me know. I'm not exactly sure what’s involved, but on the general concept, I kind of like it.” And then after that, you know, he comes back to me, like, a while later, and was like, “Hey, I know NBC wants you like for this show.” And so, we hopped on a call. He told me more about, like, the concept itself, and I was really intrigued by it. I was like, this is a very layered type of show. It's the duality of it. I really liked. And I was like, “Alright, well, let's see what we can make happen here.” And I was like, “Oh, if I'm able to lie about who I am, this is, this is a very dangerous game for me, because that means I'm gonna be, Xavier out here and in that chat, I'm just gonna be an absolute savage.” So yeah, the possibilities contained in the game definitely intrigued me. So, I was hooked. I was like, “Yeah, let's, let's make it happen. Let's, let's see how it goes.”
 
John Betancourt: Now it’s not every day I get to talk someone that has done so much reality TV and been so successful at it. And I'm very curious now, as a seasoned veteran of this genre of television, do you have, a preparation routine? Something that you do before you go into a show to get that edge.
 
Xavier E. Prather: Great question. Great question. So typically, before I go on a show, and like, the last three shows I've done have been shows that have never, kind of existed before, the challenge was a spin off. So, it's like, I kind like to have more precedent, but like Reindeer Games, and then this show, there's nothing to go off of, so you try to find things that are similar. Um, with this show, my preparation consisted of watching The Circle, um, The Traitors and The Mole. Those were three shows that I felt like elements of those shows are going to be heavily involved, here. From The Circle, you have the kind of chat atmosphere, from The Traitors, you have the adding money to the pot element, and then from The Mole, you kind of had that undercover need to be deceptive or be one way to people's face and kind of another. I took all those and tried to take as many notes as I could, not physical notes, but just kind of make mental notes on like, “Okay, these are things that I'm seeing working effectively.”
 
That’s typically my pregame strategy. I try to find some type of precedent and then analyze that. That's what I did for Big Brother before Big Brother, I watched probably 14 prior seasons, like all within probably about a two-to-three-month span, as I was getting ready to go on the show and I was analyzing, I wasn't watching it for the enjoyment. I was watching it like game film to try to figure out, like, “Okay, this strategy is effective. This isn't effective.” Just so that way, when I got into the game, if you look at my pre-season interviews for Big Brother, I said what I was going to do before I went on the show, and then I just executed that play preparation. Preparation is definitely a big thing, but some games you can't even prepare for, so you just got to go and give it that shot.
 
John Betancourt: Now what's really amazing is, I think we can safely say you kind of brought out the first strategy of the show, since we really didn't have it the first couple episodes. But you started kind of bringing the alliances together, you’re the one who figured out that focusing on someone might be helpful. How did you kind of arrive at that strategy?
 
Xavier E. Prather: So, the strategy you guys didn't really get to see kind of how intricate that was, the strategy that I had behind the group, I was trying to figure out a way to increase the probability that, like me or someone I'm working with gets power. Because up to that point, it seemed like I was just missing the mark. I was like, “I was coming close, but not quite getting over the hump.” And so, I found out, I'm gonna give you, this is a lot, so I need you to stay up with me. I need you to stay with me. So, I found out, if you can get a group of people, you can use that group of people to kind of influence the chat. I was like, “Okay, who are, who are the names that we want to see in the chat.” So that way these handles can have reason to vote for those people in the chat. After that, once we have those people at the chat, then what we can do is we can determine how we're going to kind of allocate votes for the test.
 
So, it's like, okay, I'll use Lilly and Tyrenna, as an example. So, we have Lilly and Tyrenna. What handles do we think they are based off the chat? All right, we, let's say we think Lilly is Pizza, Truck, Fish. Okay, you two, that we're working with, you're gonna vote for Lilly for Pizza. You two, you're gonna vote for Lilly for Truck. You two, you're gonna vote for Lilly for Fish, because Andy was in on it, too. And so that way all those guesses aren't going to be right, but if one of them are, it significantly decreases the probability that that person got The Anonymous because we correctly matched their handle. And then with the people, the Alliance member, if you think you know who they are, scramble it on our alliance members. You think you know their handle, scramble it, it because it increases the probability that any of us become The Anonymous so then the power is in our hands, not theirs. And that was the plan. That's how I ended up getting the power.
 
John Betancourt: That’s brilliant. I mean, hat's gamesmanship.
 
Xavier E. Prather: Oh, I said in interviews that, like, I figured out how to hack DANI, and, like, you guys didn't really get to see it. But yeah, that's literally how I got power. It was funny because, like, I did it with the Connect Four board. When I first kind of came up with that, I sat Jack and Robbi down because I was like, look, I was like, my brain's smart enough, but you guys are big brained. Like, I just…  know this works, but I just needed to get verification. And I broke it down to them, and they were like, “Oh my God.” And I was like, “Yeah, I think this can really, like, ensure that one of us is going to get power.” So yeah, that was, that was kind of the strategy behind it. I wish you guys got to see more of kind of the intricacies behind it, because you see people in the in the hideouts, saying who they're voting for in accordance with kind of that plan. So, like, yeah, that was probably one of my prouder moments, is knowing that I kind of like figured out how to get power without jeopardizing the game for one of my allies.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, this wasn’t the result that you wanted, so I’d like to know how tough was it to say goodbye?
 
Xavier E. Prather: Um, you know, at this point, it's just kind of like ripping off a band aid. I've been on four shows. I've made it to the end on two of them. Um, lost three of them. Like, it's one of those things that, like, you take a step back and you're appreciative for the experience. Um, you, try to maybe leave a nugget or two, which I definitely gave people a couple of nuggets on the game before I left, which I think the effects of that, you start to kind of see them in this episode. I'm curious to see if they continue to kind of snowball in the coming episodes. But yeah, you leave them a little nugget, and then you just kind of, you know, shake hands, give hugs, well played. And you keep it pushing, yeah.
 
John Betancourt: You know, I was just thinking that when you were talking about the strategies, like we're kind of seeing some of the impact you had on the others, it definitely showed up in this week’s episode.
 
Xavier E. Prather: I had a feeling that some allies were going against me, specifically after the Math Challenge with Jack. So, I was like, I didn't really… I wasn't sure if he wanted me out that day, but I had a feeling like he was plotting against me in some capacity. And I was like, “we shouldn't be doing that.” So, like, all right, well, if you want to play that way, that's fine. You might get me. I'm not the one to play with. Should just work with me.
 
John Betancourt: That entire challenge was pretty tense to say the least. I must say.
 
Xavier E. Prather: Oh, that challenge. We ran out of time. We didn't, we didn't even actually come to a consensus. It was just DANI told us we had to make a decision. So, in that moment, it was like, either we don't come to a decision, then we likely are disqualified from competing, as like, my experiences told me, if partners don't come to decision, they don't compete, or we go for the number he wants to pick and pray that we get it done. I was very pessimistic about our probability of getting it done. But it was like, this is, this is better than not competing at all.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, you've been an important part of the reality TV landscape for several years now, and this is another big moment Because this is, such a unique and dynamic show. And I'm very curious what it means to you personally now to be a part of such a pioneering reality TV show?
 
Xavier E. Prather: It's crazy to still be kind of involved in the space as involved as I've been. It was funny when I was going through the interview process for the show, the producers said that I kind of reminded them, aspects of me reminded them of Cirie Fields. Arguably the most flattering compliment I think I've ever received. And it's just kind of like, you know, you see people like Cirie, you see people like Sandra, C.T., Dan Geesling like some people, Danielle Reyes, like people who are just really legends in kind of this space, and you hope that, like, you know, maybe someday you'll be in the same consideration of them, or like, you know, you're doing something to make an impact. So, to be considered for, like, a lot of these new and really funny, unique and exciting processes, I just feel like eternally grateful. It's really kind of, it's still kind of surreal. Honestly.
 
John Betancourt: So last question that I have for you today, what are you most proud of, what you accomplished with this tshow.
 
Xavier E. Prather: I was most proud of was figuring out how to hack DANI. I wish you guys really got to you got to see more of, like, how that all played out. But like, that was definitely the thing, because I was like, DANI, I like, I figured you out. Like, I figured out how to get power for either me or my allies and not have to, like, throw their name in the chat, or, like, throw them -- because, like, one, as you have already seen, one of the more effective strategies is like, be really close with someone in person and then just absolutely obliterate them. That that's not something I really wanted to, like, that was a very like, no disrespect. It was, like, kind of a surface level, like, obvious answer. And I was like, there's ways I don't want to throw my allies under the bus. So let me figure out a way to kind of get power without having to resort to that kind of last resort and figuring that out. I was just really like, wow, like I actually kind of was able to make this happen. I wish I hadn't gotten power that day, actually, because I think if my allies, if one of my allies, had gotten power, they would have had more faith that it worked, but because they didn't, I think a lot of them were skeptical about, like, whether or not it actually worked.
 
And I was like, “No,” I was like, “I can't tell you guys that I got The Anonymous but I'm telling you it worked.” So yeah, that was probably my proudest moment on this show, and also being one of the last couple of people to be put at risk, I thought I might have been gone first when I told them, when I had to tell them that I won Big Brother. So, ending up, you know, seeing it be me and Nina be some of the last people to be put at risk was kind of cool, given that we both had, like the experience. I was like, “Okay, clearly, we've taken our prior experience and are using it to our advantage here in this game.” So that was kind of cool, too.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

​Ellen Frankenstein is an accomplished documentarian whose current project is going to stir up some conversation. For Cruise Boom asks from tough questions about the arrival of cruise-based tourism in small towns, and we here at NTG had the honor of sitting down with Ellen to discuss her poignant new film.
 
John Betancourt: I’d like to start by getting to know what motivated you to tell this story?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, I can say that many ways, I didn't want to make this film, but I came up to this community, Sitka, Alaska, this beautiful community surrounded by mountains and ocean and eagles and whales and all that, to make a film, and I ended up staying. And what happened -- that was like years and years ago, came up as a documentary filmmaker. Well, this is a town where we kept voting down public cruise ship docks, and anyway, someone built a private one, and suddenly the community was facing this incredible change. And some people that I worked with or knew said, “You're a documentary filmmaker, you should document the community on the cusp of change.” So, I made this film.
 
John Betancourt: That leads me right into my next question, which is a two-part question, what were the challenges of putting this film together and the challenges of doing so when you had some reluctance to do so.
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, there's so many challenges. Um, one challenge is, I've made a lot of films. I've made films about grief and healing and food and teenagers, whenever you get into resources, and capitalism, it's a really tricky topic. So that's one thing that it's really hard to make films about the economy, about things that have -- and it's a polarizing topic. It's not a healing topic. The film is a lot of questions. It's also… this is a topic that's on many people in the community's minds, like all the time, because we're faced with more tourists some days than actually live in town. A lot of people are creating new businesses because of the cruise boom. But for the other people who live here on the day-to-day basis. It's it really impacts our lives. So, it's kind of almost feels like, who am I to take on such a topic that is so part of so many people's lives?
 
John Betancourt: Now you also beautifully explore the “Us vs. Corporation” mentality that’s out there right now, and I’m curious why you think now really is the perfect time to have that discussion, while showcasing an issue that few of us know about.
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, for one thing, this type of issue is not just about cruise ships. We know it's a time where corporations and privatization, it's everywhere. I mean, whether it's prisons, it's schools, what other places are we seeing? They’re just trying to privatize everything. So, it's just there's so much tension. And it's also this time of climate change. So, it feels like we should be thinking about how we do things. But with that, there seems to be this hunger to just go ahead and use and do and not think about impact. So, I don't know. I mean this, it happened that this boom happened in the town I was living in. So, I made this film with my co-creator Atman Mehta. But I don't feel like I answered that question, so why do you think it's relevant? Why does it resonate with you?
 
John Betancourt: For me, it’s just a hotbed topic. Because we are seeing more and more that corporations are just being awful to people. I live in Denver, and out here, Kroger, our big grocery supplier admitted to fluffing up prices and it has people rightfully mad. Because they don’t feel like their best interests were in play, and it has raised the temperature here. So, perhaps to redirect a bit, let’s shift to what the temperature is like in Sitka, when it comes to this.
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, it's interesting, because the grocery store thing is, is huge, and it impacts everyone everywhere. I think one of the issues here that's interesting, as a filmmaker, trying to keep my eye on this whole thing about privatization, globalization, corptocracy, I guess, is that the right way to say it on a local level, sometimes people get kind of bogged down with this. The streets are crowded, the trails are crowded. It's hard to get groceries, and there's diesel fuel fumes in the air. So, and what about the quality of our town? So sometimes the quality of our life, I feel like it's a tension. I felt like, “Hey, we got to step back and look at this as this issue of -- this is not in the film. We have some small fishermen. We have a -- we're the home of a mom-and-pop fishery. And the tension, one of the tensions in the film is that Chris, who decides to buy this boatyard, boat haul out, has both the boat haul out that fishermen use, where you get your good cooking line salmon from these fishermen. And he gradually turns it totally into a cruise ship dock. It was a financial choice. He thought it would be better for not only himself, but for the whole community. But that put the mom and pop, small people more on edge. So, it's that, if there is that tension, and I don't know, I think we're seething as a country and as a world, because things are not trickling down. And we get all over the world, there's, I mean, there's housing and access to food issues, you know, what's our minimum wage right now in the US?
 
John Betancourt: A joke. It’s nice and stagnant. So then, to continue that discussion, and that line of thinking as a follow up now to post filming, has the town seen the boom that it wanted, or is it still at that point of kind of like, well, we did this and it's nice, but it's not the benefit that we wanted?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Ooh, that’s complicated. I think people, there's been a local group called Sitka Soul, and they've been working on putting in these petitions to try to set a limit on the numbers of how many -- because I think, you know, we have 8500 people in town, and sometimes days we have more than people, more people than that, visiting town. But then other people are expanding their businesses. We have more food trucks; we have more tours. So, it's very unsettled. There isn't one answer, but a lot of the businesses, local businesses, do say they agree that more is not better. I mean, they actually find that the more people you bring to a place, they don't spend as much per person. And it's really hard to get data, so I don't think, I think we remain in a polarized, tense situation.
 
John Betancourt: That’s fair. I would imagine the important thing is the discussion gets underway. Now, something that I noticed about this feature that I loved, is the sheer balance you maintain in telling the story, and I’m curious, how did you maintain that balance being so close to the topic?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Oh, it was very difficult. I mean, I think I made films and other topics where sometimes you get caught with this thing, where folks who are called critics and activists, which I don't think they should be called, that they should be people care about their community. They feel you should fight harder. You should have more things about environmental damage. You know workers. You know what happens to workers on cruise ships and on the other side, so to speak, any kind of question, especially with something like tourism, you're being negative. What a negative film. So, I don't – again I'm not answering you very well. But I think the film kind of wanders purposely and raises a lot of questions. It’s really hard with polarizing topics to like, to deal with them, to do them in a way. But my thing is, can, and there's been some great community screenings and use of the film where people are using it to think about, what do we want for our communities? How do we how do what kind of shape or control? What leverage do we have to make this work as best we can for everybody?
 
John Betancourt: And speaking of that, what do you ultimately hope that people take away from this feature when they watch it?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, one of the things is to think about how we travel and the choices we make. Um, because I think a lot of people don't know how cruise ships work, and how they're registered offshore and how they push back and play communities off each other. So I just think that realization, um, in your impact when you travel, that you do have an impact, and then for communities all over I mean, I think the film does call and make pay a lot of attention to how community looks at itself, how we work together, how we shape the places we live and keep the things that we love. I mean, the thing about Alaska is it's a beautiful place. One thing I want people to feel when they watch this film. I want them to feel confused. We have whales, eagles and bears in the film. We have totem people working on totems polls. We have an amazing section about indigenous tourism. So, I want people to feel kind of torn like, yes, I want to see that, but what is the impact of our wants and desires? I had a friend during Covid who said, “If I don't get to travel, it impacts my mental health.” And I was like, wait, you're not living in a war zone. You're not ill. Why do you think travel is – you know what I mean? It was an interesting concept. And there's even a thing that talked about in some literature about revenge tourism, post-Covid, people felt they deserved to travel. So, do we deserve our bucket list? The other thing is, I want people to think about their bucket lists. Your wants may have an impact.
 
John Betancourt: I think that’s great. That’s something we don’t think about, in the slightest and clearly, the companies don’t think about the impact either.
 
Ellen Frankenstein: I mean, in the film, I was really lucky to have a representative from the the international cruise line agency, and from Royal Caribbean speak, and they say they want to be partners, and I think we need to hold them accountable. One of the things in the film, there's that scene where they've donated for a parking lot at the Raptor Center, and I'm really glad they did that, but they didn't give money to the women's shelter. They gave money for a parking lot, to bring in busses. So, my thing is, and I've helped with some films like The Proposal and Further Tales of the City that have come to town, I think we need to extract as much as we can from them as they're extracting from us.
 
John Betancourt: Absolutely. It was also shocking to learn how much money they’re swimming in.
 
Ellen Frankenstein: I know people that have seen that one section in the film and then they've said they didn't realize how a multinational works. So, I'm really thrilled that this could be an insight into that for people. I mean, the film's gonna be airing on PBS, streaming for free, Pbs.org, starting September 14. It's on Kanopy. I just encourage people to watch it and think and to use it and talk about it. I don't know… it's hard sometimes with choices, right? You can try to like, “Yeah, I'm not going to eat this I'm not going to take this flight.” But what do we do in this world where capitalism is everywhere? What choices can we make?
 
John Betancourt: Speaking of lessons. What did you learn as a filmmaker that you didn't know before you stepped into this project?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: Well, one of the challenges in this film, you know, when we watch films… they're character driven. Well, when we started this film, we wanted characters, and then we realized the town was a character. So, one thing that's really hard is, how do you do that? And I don't know if we succeeded. Can you make a place a character? What else did I learn? Well, one thing is, as I said, I make films that involve people talking about self-mutilation, suicide, grief, people who work in tourism are cheerful and the people who -- most people, when they're traveling, are really excited. They I mean, it's really exciting to see a beautiful place. So, it's an interesting tension. I think to make a film about something that's like, it's this happy realm on the one hand, but it has this other impact. What I learned, you know, it's also a really hard time to be an independent filmmaker. It's a struggle. If you look on, let's say, Netflix or Hulu or whatever. It's stories of celebrities and crime and you gotta be someone famous. It's really, it's a rougher time than it was when I started making films, in some ways, but I love, there's more voices out there, but it's harder and harder to kind of get through and get your films used well. So, I think I may be learned that and may go back… I did a whole series of shorts between longer films. And I think I'm going back to shorts.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what are you most proud of when it comes to this film?
 
Ellen Frankenstein: I'm most proud of use. I'm all about… I've had some great discussions with college students, with communities using this to think about what's going on in their community. That also makes me proud. I really like to think about what happens after a film. And I love my collaboration. I had this young collaborator Atman, who's now getting his PhD in economic history at the University of Chicago. It was a lovely collaboration. And the thing about an independent film like this, it’s based on collaborations, and I really am happy with all the people that were willing to be in the film, all the people, the sound, the score, the sound designer. I mean, I just love that process.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Maya Gabeira is easily the best surfer on the planet, and Stephanie Johnes is a highly accomplished documentarian. They come two very different worlds but worked together to chronicle ten years in Maya’s life to create the documentary, Maya and the Wave, and we here at NTG sat down with both of them to discuss their incredible fim.
 
John Betancourt: Maya, what inspired you to tell this story. Because you didn't have to. You're literally the best surfer in the world, but you had a story to tell.
 
Maya Gabeira: Well, I think that that was Stephanie's work. You know, she found a go and she was interested in a story that nobody really was. And I think not only through the sport, you know, big wave surfing was still very unknown, and female athletes were very, not really seen at the time, and I think she tapped into something. And to be honest, I wasn't really the best surfer at that point. I don't think, I think I became the best surfer throughout those 12 years. And I'm sure that, you know, by telling my story and by continuing to be engaged in the project, it also inspired me to reach higher, you know, I think, especially when I look at the petition and the work we did to really pull that record out of the Guinness and the WSL (World Surfing League), I don't think I would have done it alone. You know. I think it would have been too big of a job if I didn't have somebody that I loved and I cared for and was depending on that to finish a movie, you know? And so, I think that that really kind of helped everything, to be complete, and to happen.
 
Stephanie Johnes: Well, I'm a very mediocre surfer, and I'm a, you know, a very recreational athlete, and, you know, I've worked in film for most of my life, and documentary, specifically, and some sports films, and so I always think that's an interesting landscape to explore. And I was really curious about big wave surfing. I didn't know anything about it. And being a woman, I was especially curious to know that there was Maya, who was really one of the only women performing at a very high level in this sport. And this was 10 years ago when I met her, so I was just, it's just curiosity, like, what is it like for her to surf giant waves and, yeah, you know, filmmaking is like a, you know, it's a wonderful way to explore something that you don't know about. So, I reached out and we connected, and then just started down this road that neither of us knew was going to take a decade. But here we are.
 
John Betancourt: What kind of challenges went into creating such an ambitious and sprawling project?
 
Stephanie Johnes:  I mean, the boring answer is, resources. Making an independent film is extremely challenging. You know, this was not a studio production. So, I mean, in a sense, that's why I was able to continue year after year after year. But this is a pretty unique style of filmmaking. This is truly a Cinema Vérité film, where you just explore a person and a subject without knowing what the outcome is going to be. It's not like a retrospective biography of someone. And so, from the beginning, I just thought, “Wow, this woman is amazing. She's in an amazing environment. Let's see what's going to happen.” And that's like, a pretty rare type of film to be made. And, you know, it took a lot of dedication to stick with it year after year, pretty much as a personal, you know, project, and so that that's super challenging. And then, you know, you can see the movie. There's a lot of technical challenges. Like surfing is very complicated to capture, and Maya had obviously, a lot of experience doing that as a professional surfer, that's woven into what she does. So, she could help me, you know, connect with people and figure out the right way to, you know, capture what she does. And there's just so many surprises along the way that we just didn't anticipate things happening, you know. And that's what's exciting about this kind of film, is like, you don't know what's going to happen, but you gotta really run to try to capture it when it does happen? So, for the most part, we did.
 
John Betancourt: Now for Maya, what kind of challenges wind to being so vulnerable? Because you really open yourself up in this film, and you don't see a lot of that when it comes to sports documentaries.
 
Maya Gabeira: Yeah, for me, it was just that Steph was working independently, right? So, she was a one-person kind of production. And I think when you have just one person doing it all, it's easier to connect with the person and the human being in a level that she wasn't really a filmmaker at a lot of those moments. You know, she was my friend, and I needed her, and so sometimes, you know, when she when she would -- I think there's a scene that for me is very strong when I'm in in the room, and I had to ask her, what room was it, and where were you? Where we were together when we were in Lisbon, I was doing in Cascais, I was doing a speech, and where I cry, you know, and I tell her that I'm really tired and that I don't know what's happening, but I'm really sad and I basically, you know, I didn't say that to the camera, you know, I said that to my friend. I said that to the person that was on this crazy journey with me, and I was just really tired, you know, I was like, working against so many forces that I was just depleted. And, and I think that's how she captured the moment, but I think as a whole, that's how she captured the movie. And by working alone, I was able to connect with her at a personal level. And by working independently, she was able to connect into a freedom of creativity that really kind of kept the movie rolling, you know, into the direction it should.
 
John Betancourt: There's a lot in addition to the inspirational portion of it, this is a movie that really talks about a lot of things we don't see in sports documentaries, honestly, ever. Because I don't think these stories ever talk about the psychological side of what happens in sports, at least not enough, if anybody does. And not to mention, you know, I mean, look, just call it what it is, the wanton sexism that Maya encountered. And I'm curious from each of you, what went into the decision to showcase this other side of sports, if you will.
 
Stephanie Johnes: I guess, from my perspective, I'm a documentarian and a humanist first. And I think sports is a very visual, wonderful landscape to explore, because it's just, you know, it lends itself to film much better than, you know, historical things. It's just made for film. So as a filmmaker, it's a great landscape to be in. But I think I'm a humanist first, and I think human beings are interesting, and that's, you know, what I wanted to explore. And the this, the films that chronicle athletes that I really admire, when my favorite movie is The Crash Reel, really do have that texture of humanity and family and background, which, you know, was what I was trying to accomplish, rather than just like a, you know, splash reel. But that's why we're on earth together, is to understand each other as humans. And sports is a great vehicle for that. But it's not the end, you know, it's not the end game.
 
Maya Gabeira: I said, look, it's your movie. You know, it's my life, but at the end of the day, it's your movie. And you know, you have to do what you have to do, and you're gonna grab on to whatever you think it's important to you and what’s important to the story. And I wanted her to feel that freedom and know that whatever you know, path she chose, and whatever she felt with, you know, whatever we experienced together, she was free to use it.
 
Stephanie Johnes: Yeah, in a way, I think it's also like the, you know, there's always the flip side. You know, with a lack of resources, you have a lot of big, you know, Maya has been filmed by a lot of big productions with 10 person crews and lot of lights, a lot of interference, and that's a very different way of approaching someone when you're filming them, and it yields a different result. And so maybe our very, you know, our independent approach, and you know, minimal resources and minimally invasive style of shooting yielded a different result.
 
Maya Gabeira: It was, the only way to get this type of result. You know, if you're trying to make it splashy and big and expensive. You don't get to the core of human beings, you know, it's the opposite of what our nature is. You know, that's all the pools that we have from society. But you don't get deep.
 
John Betancourt: Now, this is premiere week. Congratulations on that. What does it mean to have this out to the masses?
 
Stephanie Johnes: I wouldn't say the masses. I mean, I would say we're still going very small here, I mean, for me, it's exciting just to, you know, have the public release. We had a huge success on the festival circuit, and so to have a, you know, Oscar qualifying run in New York City is a big deal. So that's exciting. But honestly this, you know, we are still on the independent path, which just means, you know, night by night, bookings on a film tour and hopefully gaining fans and inspiring people. And, yeah, as far as a, you know, digital release, we don't have a plan for that, but we're hoping that we find a home for the movie. I think we're probably going to be independent for a little longer. And we just, yeah, we appreciate you, and we appreciate people that connect with the story, that help us share and spread the word.
 
John Betancourt: It’s my honor and let me narrow that down better by asking what it means to have people finally see this?
 
Stephanie Johnes: Oh, it's rewarding. You just feel good, you know… 10 years is a long time to work on something, and you imagine one day we're going to be in a theater with an audience, and that's, you know, the process is part of it, part of the enjoyment, but you also anticipate the joy of sharing it with people. And they just really, they love it, they really connect. They're moved, they're wowed, they're appreciative. You have a lot of people saying, “Thank you for making this film,” and that just feels great. It feels really good. And you have a lot of people, you know, for Maya, she doesn't -- for what she has accomplished, the recognition in her life doesn't match, because it's a smaller sport and for the reasons you see in the film, it was never, it was never really properly celebrated or recognized. And this is, this is part of our moment, to be able to celebrate and recognize what she does, which you know, her accomplishment is on par with Billie Jean King winning “The Battle of the Sexes.” I mean, that is one of the most legendary, historic stories in sports, and that has been told over and over again. And what Maya did is equally as impressive but has not yet been celebrated on that level. And so, I'm hoping that this film will, you know, help celebrate something phenomenal.
 
Maya Gabeira: To me, honestly, at this point, it's kind of a vehicle to hopefully realize some of Steph's dreams and the whole team's dreams. You know, I think they deserve it. I think they worked really hard. I think they deserve recognition. And to me, you know, is the more famous the film gets, the more good I can do, you know, in the world, and the bigger of a voice I get, too, and I know what to do with it. So, I hope it goes as far as it can go for me to do what I want to.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for each of you today. What are you each most proud of when it comes to this project?
 
Maya Gabeira: Pushing through, never giving up and believing, you know, we really, we both believed in it, and I think that's a hard thing to do when you have so many obstacles. It was so hard, you know, and the fact that we kept believing and we kept holding on to each other and holding on to everyone that believed in us, too, I think that was the magic.
 
Stephanie Johnes: I would say the same perseverance. I'm very proud of the artistry of this film, and I'm also very proud of the perseverance, and, you know, I'm proud of the ecosystem, the relationships of people that are around us in this movie, and we've just worked with and connected with some really phenomenal people, and that's a gift to be able to connect with people through the filmmaking process.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.
​

Steve Fishman is a highly accomplished journalist, that has been at the center of some critical stories. His current project is The Burden: Empire on Blood, a podcast that chronicles how Steve dove into an uneven and fascinating criminal case from the 1990s, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with Steve to discuss this incredible journey.
 
John Betancourt: I'd love to start by getting to know what it was specifically that stood out about Calvin's case that really ignited the desire in you to pursue this truth.
 
Steve Fishman: What gets me started is somehow talking to Calvin through a guy I know in prison with him, calls me up cold, starts running off the facts of the case. You know, very emotional, and then, you know, expecting me to evaluate and jump on board, and I'm, frankly, kind of put off. But it gets to the moment. Maybe it's his energy, his aura, some kind of feeling he communicates. I know he's talking to me from a pay phone in the yard of a prison. I know he's desperate. He's like the only guy in his corner, and I just, in my way, imagined what it must be like to be that alone and that powerless. And I said, “Send me the transcripts.” And I read those transcripts, and it's just amazing when you get into the courtroom scene and maybe this was particular to the 90s, but the courtrooms in in the Bronx, you start to think, “Is this possible?” You know, there's all, all kinds of deals, and it's so obvious that the prosecutor’s running the courtroom and cheating and lying, and people walk in having gotten deals to walk free. And so, you know, but once I got in that door and sat down with the material, I was hooked. And frankly, I was hooked for seven years, which was not good, not good for my career. (Laughter) And you know, John, I really did not have an opinion on whether he was guilty or not. And there were times where I really thought, you know, six witnesses testify against you? I mean, how many of them are lying? Did you really do this?
 
John Betancourt: Something that I really noticed as I was listening, is that not only is this, you know, so emotional in some respects, because there are some parts that really are very deeply, deeply moving. But you present such an amazing two-sided piece here, because you really do point out the fact, correctly, that, Calvin did commit crimes, but he's still a person. But also, you know, the justice system has its laws, but it also has its flaws. And I'm very curious, how you manage to keep this so incredibly objective when you were so close to it.
 
Steve Fishman: That's a really good question. And, you know, I think some people might see it as a flaw frankly, you know, but I really go in and I find myself kind of exercising empathy, like the person I'm with, I'm trying to understand the world from their point of view. And I don't think it's like necessarily something I sit down to decide to do. It's almost like it's a weakness, you know, like some kind of lack of strength in my personality that somehow is, you know, kind of taken in by this person who's telling me something that, on one hand, I know may not be true. On the other hand, I believe that they believe it, which gives it some kind of interesting credibility. I mean, I'll give you an example. So, I'm with Turtle Man. You know, can you believe that the prosecutor's nickname is Turtle Man?
 
You know, it's a Law and Order topic, but, we're in Coen Brothers territory, so, you know, and there's literally 20 turtles in his two story house, and one of them clomping down stairs as we're talking. And so, you know, there's this guy whose life is rescuing turtles and, as he would say, putting bad guys away. Now I asked him, I said to him, “Well, have you ever been wrong? Have you ever had a conviction reversed?” And he said, “No, never.” I knew he had a conviction reversed. I read the decision a judge really did it, but I sat, and I thought about I said, you know, this is like part of his worldview that he saw. He’s a good guy going after bad guys, making the streets safer. And somehow for me, you know, I feel like that was what I wanted to communicate. It wasn't that this guy got caught in a lie, it was that this guy's conception of himself was as a good guy who was cleaning up the streets for decent citizens, you know. And it's the same with Father Frank. I mean, can you believe the detective has a nickname, Father Frank?
 
I mean, he, you know, is a guy who didn't know who Martin Luther King was, in 1965, I mean, you could get stuck on that and start to think, you know, who is this guy to go out and police neighborhoods that are largely filled with black people? I mean, but you know, like for me it was, you know, this is New York. This is this guy. This is a cop who also thinks he wants to do good. But I think, and I've covered cops enough, and, you know, done another series recently about cops, but the trap that they seem to fall into is that they feel like somehow, in their gut, they know how the world works, and they know who's lying, and they know who's not lying. And so, the kind of cognitive dissonance of coming from a background, in this case of, you know, Italian kids growing up, all of them going into civil service, and, you know, dealing with people from a rougher background who you think you can understand, you know, that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily register for them. And you know, I'm just going to pre associate here a minute. But one of the things, one of the reasons that we did this director's cut, this re-release, is that the lives of our characters in six years had just moved on, and they moved on in, like, real ways, substantive ways. I mean, Cal gets out and he starts a business. He starts a business called Ryderz Van Service.
 
He's researched, like, seven business plans in prison, right? He actually takes one of them. And, you know, don't forget, like the guy's a drug kingpin, that's essentially a businessman. So, you know, he was running a pretty successful street level business, and he gets out and he applies it. He figures, you know, all these families need transportation to their loved ones in prison. So, he says, “I'm starting the Uber of prison transport.” Now it's not like Uber says I'm starting the “Prison Riders”, Van commuting, but Cal does start this business that takes off. And I mean, I talked to him the other day, he's got like five Mercedes busses that are running passengers back and forth. And then he's actually got a really nice, big house in Houston too, but, but then you know, to get back to Father Frank. Father Frank is, you may remember in the series, moves in and gets Dwight Robinson not to confess which is his specialty, but to unconfess, a related skill, clearly, Dwight unconfessess, Cal goes back to Prison. Fast forward five years, Father Frank's comportment, his behavior with people he's trying to get, confessed or unconfessed, is called in question, and in fact, three of the people who he solicited elicited confessions from have their convictions overturned because of the techniques he used.
 
So, Father Frank, who kind of emerges as this unblemished detective with, in some ways, a golden gut, you know, rescues the case for the prosecution, but of course, who, in the end, gets the Calvin case wrong, or certainly at odds with the judge, he becomes a guy who is suspected kind of at the most fundamental level. He believes his skill is talking to people and getting them to confess and District Attorney investigates it and says, “I'm reopening 31 of your cases where you got confessions, because I really don't know if they're going to stand up.” So, here's a guy who's, like famous within his police corps, and really moves to a public infamy. So anyhow, the re-release kind of is able to kind of capture these lives after these, this kind of very concentrated, moment in their lives, you know, peak moment, headline moment. But, you know, lives go on.
 
John Betancourt: You know, you spent seven years on this. What kind of challenges did you run into and putting this whole sweeping story together?
 
Steve Fishman: Well, one of the challenges was, I was working at New York Magazine as a staff writer at the time, and I, I couldn't get them to do a story, you know? I kept thinking, “Oh, my God, I got this great story.” And they kept saying, “Drug dealer might be a murderer. Come on.” (Laughter) So I, you know, I spent time with this on an ongoing basis, and, you know, it wasn't helping New York Magazine. So, in kind of, just in terms of a challenge, you know, the challenge was finding the time and the motivation to do it when it was definitely against my self-interest to pursue this. I mean, reporting wise, you know, it was, it was really, finally, finally getting to that person who was an eyewitness to the crime. I mean, it was, you know… I went down with the private investigator. And so, with him, I was the first person to talk to this woman who, as a pregnant, 16-year-old, sat on the stoop a few feet away from the actual shooting and saw who did it. And for me, that was just, I mean, it was momentous. I'd spent at that point… I'd probably spent six years thinking about this crime, going back and forth. You know, Cal’s story about himself was that he was never violent, but, you know, he carried a gun. He lived in an extraordinarily violent world, in an extraordinarily kind of like -- alongside all kinds of perpetrators of violence, some of that violence directed at him.
 
So, it became a little hard to believe that Cal was not a guy who would use a gun. So, I kind of was contending with that on one hand and on the other hand, this idea that the judicial system, the justice system, had kind of rammed through a conviction of this guy in an unfair way. And then finally, you know, I get to sit down, sit down with this woman, Nakia, nicknamed Evelina, if you can believe that. There's one for Law and Order. They ripped off my stories before. (Laughter) Evelina sits down and she tells me in detail how she saw and then who she saw commit the crime, which actually sends a shiver on my spine, because this is a guy that I've been talking to now for years. He's in prison for a different murder. But the guy she names is somebody that I've become quite friendly with. I mean, he's somebody that, you know, I send stuff to in prison. He wants Sudoku, because he tells me that it's going to keep him sharp in old age. He's dying to get Timberlands because that is apparently the most sought-after shoe in prison, though we later learned, the problem with getting Tim's in prison is that they're two tone, and because of gang activity, you're not allowed to wear anything two tone in prison. So, he shut down.
 
Anyhow, the point of this, being that this is the guy who's named, and I then need to go to prison, and I need to tell him that he's been named as a killer. And I remember that moment really well, because in prison, they let me sit -- it's almost a conference room, you know, with bars on the windows, beat up chairs, beat up table. But he and I are sitting across from one another, so about four feet from one another, and I got my little favorite tape recorder running. For some reason they forgot to put a guard in there that day. So, it was just me, and, you know, I know him, and I kind of like him, but you know, I've also heard him, even on the phone, go into like, another mode where, he'll say something like, “I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna beat that guy up. I just got to do it,” so I'm not entirely, you know, convinced that this is like interview protocol here entirely, and I'm about to tell the guy, listen, I know you killed this guy because this eyewitness said so. I… a Lieutenant comes into the room, notices that there's nobody there, no guard is there, no corrections officer, and says, “What the hell's going on? “And puts one in there, which point I go to the restroom for a few minutes, and I leave my tape recorder on. I always use my tape recorder, and I catch the conversation that Dwight has with the corrections officer, where they start joking about how… Dwight could have killed me.
 
“I could have killed him.” “Yeah, right.” “He's not dead, is he?” And, like, for me, that was, like, a very big moment, because, you know, I entered into this as like a reporter, you know, college educated, all those kind of typical things. Unlike these guys who seem very much, you know, conversational, relatable, and at some level, you know, you get brought up against the fact that they come from a different world. They would say that to me, “I come from a different world than you.” But in terms of, like, the hardest challenge, I think it was, it was getting the information that finally relieved me of the burden of “is he or isn't he,” I finally was able to feel wholeheartedly he didn't do this, and that just made me feel fantastic because independently, I liked Cal and wanted to believe he wasn't guilty. And finally, I'd gotten to this woman in North Carolina, 800 miles away, who'd seen this incident in the Bronx, 30 years earlier.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today, obviously, this couldn't have come out at a better time, I think, with the climate as it as it stands, with how we feel about the justice system and how people feel about wrongful incarceration. And I'm very curious, what you hope audiences take away from this story of flaws and wins and sorrow.
 
Steve Fishman: You know, the first thing that I want people to experience is, I want them to be immersed in the experience of the criminal justice system. I mean, I want them to be entertained, but I want them to be enthralled. I want them to feel like after they listen to this, that they know how things work. You know, not in every case, but certainly in some cases. I want them to understand the power relationships and the loneliness and what it takes to win against the system. I mean, one of the things that I came away with was this incredible respect for the unbelievable determination of a guy like Calvin over a period of 20 years. And as you know, his lawyer that he believes in and loves dies, and Calvin has two weeks, and then he recovers. But you know, like in a grander way, I think, you know, we wrestle, we being society, voters, citizens. We wrestle with what we should do with people who commit crimes or people who are accused of crimes. And you know, we go up and down right, like in the Giuliani era, even in Dinkins era.
 
So, this is the early 90s when crime was off the charts. We, I mean, the taxpayers, the voters. We wanted crime solved. We didn't care how it got done. So, I want... I want people to understand that we can't let the wrong people go to prison, but I want them to understand too, that this isn't a distant story about what some cops did and what some prosecutors did. This is a story about who you put in office, what you expect from them, and how you treat the public dialogue around punishment. I mean, you know, as you said, Cal was a bad dude. Yeah, I mean, there's, it's possible to say, especially in 1995 when he goes to prison, when there's 2000 murders a year, and when a lot of them are around the crack trade. It's possible to say, you know, “The guy's a drug dealer, who cares,” you know, throw him in prison, let someone else sort it out. And that's kind of a rational view in the midst of a crime wave. But you can't then, 20 or 30 years later, say, “Oh, my God. How did this happen? Who are these rogue cops, who are these delinquent prosecutors who go out and do this, you know?”
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Christopher Chung is a supremely talented and accomplished actor that has earned his way into our hearts via his portrayal of the sometimes loveable, sometimes frustrating Roddy Ho in the Apple TV+ series, Slow Horses, and with season four underway, we were able to sit down with Christopher to discuss his time on the show.
​
John Betancourt: I would love to know what it means to you an actor to be back for a fourth and epic season.
 
Christopher Chung: I mean, I think with the way that streaming is now, like, you're lucky to get past the first two seasons, so the fact that we've managed to get to Season Four is a godsend, in some ways, and to be able to do it on a show that's been so well received and loved by the audiences is a bonus. So, it's a very exciting season. I think it's one of the best seasons that was done.
 
John Betancourt: I have to agree, and you actually bring me right to my next question, the fact that fans just cannot get enough of this show. And I'm very curious, what you think allows for this show to resonate so well with audiences.
 
Christopher Chung: I think it's… they're just, they're very relatable characters. You know, it is a spy thriller, but it's not in the James Bond world. It's not sleek, it's not sexy. It's very much driven from a place of reality and truth. And I think when people fantasize about what it's like to be a spy… it makes it a little bit more touchable and accessible, because all of the characters are forward. And I think that's what people really enjoy about the Slow Horses and, you know, being invited into Slough House to see to see us all in our fuckery. (Laughter from Christopher and John)
 
John Betancourt: That also leads me to my next question. Because you bring up a really good point about the realism of the show, and that applies to the characters, and I’m very curious how you as an actor have made Roddy so real and so dynamic, because he's someone that we instantly can just think of in our own workplaces.
 
Christopher Chung: Yeah, I think you know, someone asked me that question the other day, if Roddy was based on any one person in particular that I knew. And I'm surprised by how many people come up to me nowadays and say, “I know someone exactly like your character,” and it kind of flabbergasted me, because I've kind of made him an amalgamation of, like, some of the worst bits of some of the worst people that I know, but also some of the like…. I've tried to make him very well… I've tried to make him likable in what he does. I think the thing that the trick with Roddy is, is that he sits on the edge of being an absolute prick that you don't want to see any more of. So, making sure that everything that I play with him is coming from a place that's not malicious, you know.
 
John Betancourt: I get that. Kind of just that, there's an innocence, but also a purpose behind his madness.
 
Christopher Chung: Correct.
 
John Betancourt: Out of curiosity, just as a quick follow up to that one, because I'm always curious with actors that get a play character that are so not them. Does Roddy ever come home with you mentally, or is he somebody that stays at work?
 
Christopher Chung: (Laughs) What's funny is, like, I've never lived with a character for as long as Roddy. And he's, he is everywhere in my head. Now, you know, I was in New York with my wife a few months ago, and we were shopping, and I saw a t-shirt that completely resonated with him, and I had to buy it. You know, I look at -- whenever you're out in the world, because you're always trying to, like, think of new ideas, or how would your character respond to certain things, he's always kind of there, narrating slightly like that.
 
John Betancourt: Now this show is, obviously, an actor's paradise. You each get to do such incredible work, week in and week out, that obviously leaves us in awe. And I'm curious what it means to you as an actor to work on a series that really does give you so much to work with.
 
Christopher Chung: It's a… it's a gift, isn't it? I mean, I think every actor has been in a situation where, you know, the material is not great, or your costars are not great, or the conditions that you're working under are not great. And you know for the last four years that we've been making the show, all of those boxes have been ticked in in an excellent way like that. It's an absolute dream of a job to have. So, I feel extremely lucky every time I step on set, you know, to get to work with Gary (Oldman), with Saskia (Reeves), Jack (Lowden), Kristen (Scott Thomas), you know, we are like, in so many ways, like a small kind of dysfunctional family, but it's great fun. So, it's excellent.
 
John Betancourt: I am curious, without spoiling, what you're looking forward to audiences experiencing in the next five, six weeks, without any spoilers of course.
 
Christopher Chung: I think, um, there's the big twists that come. I think you know, especially from episode one, it has left so many questions open. You know, is River really dead? What slow horse is in like… in jeopardy? There's so many threads that need to be tied up within the next five episodes. It's really difficult to choose one that you would focus on. So. Yeah, we'll go with the twists.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, over the course last four years, what have you been most proud of thus far when it comes to your work on the show.
 
Christopher Chung: At the end of season one, there's a line when River tells Roddy why he's in Slough House, and he says to River at the end, “They tried to cage me up, but you can't cage a dragon.” And James Hawes, our director of season one, had just left the camera running, and that is something that just kind of fell out of my mouth with any preparation. It was just a bit of improv, but it made it into the cut, and I feel like it was a moment for me where I’m like… I hadn't thought about that line. It kind of came out of nowhere, and it just really meant that I had found Roddy at the end of by season one. So, I think that's that was probably one of my proudest moments.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

This week’s episode of The Anonymous on USA Network saw another surprise elimination take place. Since Jack was quick to send home one of the newcomers, in Wayne. Whom we all thought might last a little longer given his natural attachment to the guile required for this competition. But alas, it wasn’t meant to me and to properly bid Wayne farewell, we sat down with him to discuss his experiences on the show.

John Betancourt: I would love to start with… all of you have an amazing journey as to how you came onto the show. Yours is obviously one of the more amazing ones, because you were a surprise contestant. How did that come to be?
 
Wayne Nichols: Well, you know, I wasn't aware of that component until we arrived on location, and, you know, they let me know then that it was looking more likely that I would be a surprise house guest. So, you know, I was obviously hoping at that point that I would have entered the house initially with the other house guests. But, you know, I was certainly thrilled to still be on the show and have an opportunity. I think the biggest challenge for me was just, you know, how does my approach differ now that I'm coming in a little bit later in the game, so I had to kind of decide, right, like, how aggressive… or do I play it cool? Initially, that was the balancing act that I really tried to find, you know, when I entered the home.
 
John Betancourt: I do want to talk a bit about your strategy today, because your strategy was very, very bold. I would definitely say one of the most impactful things about your time on the show is how well you shook it up. All of my friends that watched it last week, were texting me about how exciting and intense that Face-Off was, and I'm curious what brought to life that strategy of trying to get everybody off their feet.
 
Wayne Nichols: Listen, my back was in the corner. I wish I could tell you, you know, I've got this master plan, and I'm, you know, curling my mustache here. The reality was, I knew I was in trouble. There was a vibe that I just felt in that house after I caught a vote, and I was obviously up for elimination. I knew, and I didn't want to leave that house with any regret. So, I didn't actually have a plan of what I was going to do in the Face-Off, and I'm so glad that in the Face-Off wasn't chosen to go first. I was so glad that I was actually able to go a little bit later so I could see how the process worked. After I did that, I'm like, “You know what? I'm going to go ahead and throw a truth grenade,” my truth grenade, right, as I call it, and see if I can shake things up. And I was, I was really happy, by far.
 
I'm glad that you mentioned how exciting it was to see that. I did not know the other players reactions or see the other players their facial reactions. It actually made my day to see Lilly and to see Jack, and to see everybody saying, “Oh my goodness,” right, and Victoria, it made me feel like a million dollars because, you know, I had to do something. I had to take a shot, and whether or not it's a failure or a success, on my part, it was something that there's no regret, like, I leave there and say, “All right, at least I tried everything I could to maybe shake the game up or get people to second guess their alliances.”
 
John Betancourt: Now you said something very interesting during your exit. That you didn't think you were going to win it all when you came in. I'm very curious as to why you didn't think that.  You're the first contestant I've talked to that didn't think that they were going to go all the way, that's not an insult mind you, but it's very pragmatic
 
Wayne Nichols: So yeah, I appreciate you saying that I'm a realist. I have a life goal of… and I always say, “small goals, big victories.” And I've been saying small goals, big victories for every aspect of my life, personally, professionally, in business, right? I like the idea of setting a small goal and not choosing too big of a goal, where you set yourself up for failure. So, for example, you know, if my goal is to lose… 20 pounds, right? We'll start with the first 5, right? Let's get to the first five, right? And I feel like when you have those small goals, they become big victories. Of course, I wanted to go to the very end, but I think I would have been setting myself up for failure if I said, “All right, it's a failure if I don't make it and go all the way.” So, I just wanted to be like you said, a little bit more pragmatic, and I wanted to be more realistic. It didn't mean I wasn't shooting for the stars. I just, you know, I had a more realistic approach.
 
John Betancourt: Now, since you and Bismah, and Victoria came into the competition a little later, how tough was it coming into it was already an intense dynamic?
 
Wayne Nichols: Now, as the new guy, very tough, more so when I saw the caliber of players that were in the house, obviously I had not met the three previous players. I'll throw out Xavier's name. When I saw Xavier that first night, immediately I was caught off guard, right? How could a player of his caliber having won the show that he's previously been on, how could he still be in this game after not one, not two, but three eliminations? Seeing him kind of caught me off guard. And, you know, I had to constantly assess, do I hit the ground running, or do I try to play it cool and just build potential alliances? It was really a balancing act. I don't know how I did, because I'm sitting here, but at the same time, it was still thrilling to have that challenge and to say, “All right, you know what? Let's go out make some lemonade, you know?” So that's what I tried to do.
 
John: Out of curiosity, since you had that more pragmatic understanding was it tough then to say goodbye or was it a little bit easier when you kind of have those expectations set a little bit.
 
Wayne Nichols: Great question, I told myself, no matter what happens, how far I get, let's, you know, not be dramatic, you know. Let's make sure everybody knows it's just a game. I had a fantastic time. I, you know, made it very clear, no hard feelings, of course, you know, I… you know what? I'll say, a roller coaster is the perfect analogy. Everybody talks about the ups and downs of a roller coaster, but everyone also says, “I wish it was a little bit longer.” And that's exactly what I wish my roller coaster ride was. Just a little bit longer, but it still was a roller coaster ride.
 
John Betancourt: With that in mind, since you’ve had a little time to reflect, what would you had done differently if you had a chance to do this again?
 
Wayne Nichols: Great question, and I have thought about it. The only thing, the only single thing I would have done differently, I would have voted for myself during that last chat session. I think that would have potentially given me a better chance of securing The Anonymous because, again, you watch it back, Dillian obviously had a very strong and correct gut instinct as to who Light Bulb was. I would be willing to bet, if I had voted for myself, it would have made some people second guess as to whether or not Light Bulb was really me.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, this is a very cool experience to begin with, something that you know. So, if you get to do what are you going to miss the most about being on this show?
 
Wayne Nichols: I am going to miss, believe it or not, the production value. I'm a huge fan of reality shows. I'm a huge fan as to what goes into making them. Listen, it was the most fantastic experience, not just in front of the camera, but to see what goes on behind. Yeah, I'm just gonna miss that, because I took, took that in as a… sort of like a fan of how these shows are made and produced and everything. So, yeah, I don't think I will ever see anything with that level of production value ever again. So I really will miss that, but I will say, in this day and age, it's really nice that, you know, I'll be able to keep in touch, obviously, with fellow cast members. And I'm also excited about that too.
 
John Betancourt: Yeah, I've heard that a couple of times, and I think that's really cool, that all of you still stay in touch like that, because it speaks to the uniqueness of the show. And speaking of that, what did it mean to you to be part of a series that really is so original and so new.
 
Wayne Nichols: You're spot on. The original and the new. You know, just, let's talk about the concept, right? Like, you know, The Anonymous. You don't even know who held the power. You don't even know who is holding the power. And so, you think about other shows where players can say, “Oh, this person's holding the power this week. Let me go ahead and see if I can, you know, make some inroads with them. Or let me see if I can align myself with them.” You don't know who has that power, and that's really the magic part of the game, right? You never know if the person you're talking to is the person who saved you, and if that person did save you, they can't tell you, “Hey, by the way, Wayne, I could have voted you off when I was The Anonymous and I did or I didn't,” right? That part's really exciting, and that's a concept we've never seen. And again, I'm a huge fan of reality shows. That's what will make The Anonymous stand out, especially in this inaugural season.
 
John: I think we all learn a little something about ourselves and anything we knew that we try. And I'm curious, what you took away from this experience?
 
Wayne: Oh, you know, what I took away… going with my gut instinct, you know, the times that I felt that I was in trouble, guess what? I was in trouble, the time that I was, you know, forming a genuine connection. Those connections were genuine. There's always gameplay in the background. But yeah, I think for me, I'm just, I'm very happy with the game that I could play, with what I was given to play with. And yeah, I think going with my gut, sticking with my gut, is something that I’m glad I didn’t just go ‘eh’ with. I knew I was in trouble during the Face-Off, I was like, “Yeah, I need to make a move here, because I'm going to regret it if I don't.” So, I went with my gut on that one, too.
 
John: Last question that I have for you, we're almost proud of what you accomplished on this show.
 
Wayne Nichols: Ooh, I am really the most proud of nobody second guessing that I was a custodian or a janitor. I'm really glad that no one was like, “this is kind of weird,” right? I don't know what they'll show when my elimination episode airs, but I can tell you, having lived that moment… people appeared to be genuinely shocked when I told them what my former profession was. That was exciting for me, because I kind of, I really struggled with, do I tell people what I do? What's the profession that I tell them? And I chose the most, you know, boring profession. And I, I think what's most exciting is when I tell… I think it was Marcel. I tell Marcel that I'm a custodian or a janitor, and he just goes, “Oh, that's nice.” (Laughs) You can tell, like he did not want to ask me any more questions. So, it's a total, like, a compliment that he wasn't like, “so what do you really do?” And you know, it was, yeah, great that he was like, “Okay, move on to the next subject, because this guy is a custodian,” right? I don't know. I just loved that part of it. That was a great moment.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Reece Ritchie and Richard Fleeshman are a pair of highly accomplished actors that happen to play a pair of highly beloved characters on their current project, The Ark, on SYFY. For these two have taken the geek world by storm with their incredible portrayals of Lieutenant Spencer Lane and Lieutenant James Brice and to celebrate their work and celebrate the remaining episodes in season two, we sat down with both gentlemen to discuss all things The Ark.
​
John Betancourt I would love to start off by getting to know what it means to each of you as actors be back for a second season.
 
Reece Ritchie: Oh, it's such a joy, like on a personal level, because you've already done the groundwork with meeting everyone, getting to know everybody, and you get to, you get to pick up at a very fun stage, you know, very fun point in the whole thing. And so, just for the show, it's really nice when you work really hard on something that is received in a nice way and that fans want more. I mean, that's every actor's dream. So, to go back, you know, we're very close to the crew as well. We spend an awful lot of time with the Serbian crew. So, it's just, there are no negatives, really. It's just so nice to be back around everybody and then to explore new territory with the show as well. A lot of fun.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, I mean, just adding to that, really, like it was, it was kind of a reach into the unknown, as any first season is. It's essentially an elongated pilot, you know, you hand out to the world and see if they're going to like it. So, for people to come back and say, “Yeah, we liked it enough to want to do a second season,” that means the absolute world. And again, you know, as Reece was saying, you kind of jump onto a moving train in season two, whereas season one, you're establishing who people are, what their motives are, there's a lot of explanation about backstories and things that kind of gets in the way of character building and narrative and stuff, because it's essential. But when you can arrive at season two going well, “we know you know who these people are, now we can just start to have fun.” So, we've definitely been given the opportunity in season two, some crazy, crazy stuff has happened, and some more crazy stuff is about to happen. So yeah, people are going to be very shocked, I think.
 
John Betancourt: This is, obviously, an absolutely beloved series, and I’m also wondering what the incredible fan response has meant to each of you.
 
Reece Ritchie: Well, you kind of have a recipe that you try and stick to, but you never know. You know, you can try your best and do everything. But ultimately, we're making a piece of entertainment for a fan base. Without the fans, the show wouldn't exist. So of course, it's pivotal that they, you know, when they respond positively, it's just great. It's, you know, it means it's a job well done. Also, I really like to read their guesses about what's going to happen, because they come up with these really weird and wonderful theories. And you think, oh, actually, some of them are really interesting as well. Some of them are right, some of them completely wrong. But that's a lot of fun, because you don't always know how things are coming across entirely, because we're on the inside, our view is kind of tainted with bias, but with them, they have a very kind of unencumbered view of the whole thing, and that's a lot of fun to witness and to read.
 
Richard Fleeshman: I was told ahead of time; how intense it can be in the sci fi world. I hadn't really done much sci fi before, and they weren't wrong, like the fans are, unlike anything else you can do. It's such, I don't know. It's like, a real deep feeling of togetherness with the show, and also a breadth of knowledge, like people will talk to me if they like the show, and then they'd be like, “this episode from this thing, and years ago, in 1978 and there was this thing.” I'm like, “Wow,” it's so impressive, and that's… how wonderful to have a fan base that's so passionate.
 
Reece Ritchie: It’s been a bit a scary too, right? Because you don't want to mess it up.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Oh yeah! I'm like, “’78. Wait, what was that?” (Laughter from all)
 
Reece Ritchie: That's why Jonathan Glassner and Dean (Devlin) are so good. They both know the tropes of this genre, and they know that, you know, you can really step on a problem, if you go against something that's a well-established, established trope or convention in this genre. So, yeah, I think we've always been in very safe hands with them, with those two.
 
John Betancourt:  You guys have had some really amazing moments, each of you as actors this season, obviously the clone thing for Lane, a lot of what's going on with Brice, and I'm very curious what it means to you as actors to be able to work on a series that gives you that kind of meat to work with.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Well, that's what's nice, I guess, because first and foremost, we're on a sci fi show, so we know that there's going to be fights and starships and all that kind of stuff that goes with that. What I didn't realize was how much the writers were going to also really invest in character work and the pain and the joy, and the love and the fallouts and the tears and all that stuff that they have seemingly wanted to embrace just as much, which was a really nice treat, because you never know. On the way in, I only had read episode one when we joined the show, so you don't know what the plans are. It could have just been like, fight, fight, fight. Planet, planet, planet.
 
Reece Ritche: Aliens. (Laughs)
 
Richard Fleeshman: Aliens, aliens, aliens. So, it's been, it's been really lovely and how much the writers seem receptive to --- very often, if we've met them various dinners or wrap parties and things, and they've said, “Oh, we saw that thing with you, and Reece in that scene that time. And that sparked this idea that we thought…” that's a lovely place to be in where you feel that this actual real time feedback as an actor going back to the writers’ room, and they're feeding off what our brilliant cast are doing and taking it back. And so, no, it's been, it's been a real joy. Really has.
 
Reece Ritchie: They've kept us apart ever since. Richard.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, no more of that. (Laughter from all.)
 
Reece Ritchie: Brilliant, yeah, as well, like they, they trust us, which is great, because there's one thing, some of these turns are quite hard to do, you know, because sci fi throws some real kind of turns at you dramatically, and you have to make them work, and you have to make them stand up to an audience. And there's a lot of trust on the creator side, which doesn't go unnoticed. You know, we have, we have a little bit of artistic license too, you know, because we're with these characters day in and day out. So that's very cool to feel like the leadership trusts you with certain decisions and interpretations of certain things.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have you gentlemen today, without any spoilers, of course, what are you most looking forward to audiences experiencing in the final three episodes of the season.
 
Reece Ritchie: Shock and awe.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, there's going to be a lot of, I mean, just watch the, watch the Twitters. In the next three weeks, Twitter's going to go nuts. You'll see it's a big one. It's a big one coming.
 
Reece Ritchie: There's a few big ones coming.
 
Richard Fleeshman: There's a… we certainly didn't see them coming. And that was, that's a big deal, because, you would assume that we would, knowing the team and knowing the scripts and but I didn't see any of it coming, which is, yeah, and I guess what makes the rest of the season different to other shock and twists and turns that usual sci fi shows would take is that the ones that are on their way… kind of change the course of the show forever. They’re not like, “oh, well, next episode. It's back to normal,” as a lot of these are. And I think, it took, even as a cast, it took us a little while to go like, “Wow. These are bold, big decisions,” but I know myself when I'm watching a shown -- you know, why was The Sopranos so good? Because people used to just get randomly killed. It didn't matter who you were. Or, you know, suddenly there would be an explosion here, or there was a big bank robbery, and you'd be like, never saw this coming. So, no, it was just, it's lovely that they're brave enough to be like, let's just pull the rug out and see what happens.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Another week, another surprise elimination on the USA Network series, The Anonymous. For after four weeks of navigating under the radar and doing her best to misdirect and use her poker skills to win the match, Robbi Jade Lew was sent home by Victoria and to properly bid farewell to Robbi, we here at NTG sat down with her to discuss her time on the show.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious to start with how you came to be involved in the show as a poker player.
 
Robbi Jade Lew: So, I don't know if you've noticed there's a lot of poker players on a lot of these reality type of, like, competition shows. They tend to love us. (Laughter from Robbi and John) This one was obviously a very good opportunity for poker player to get on there. It's a show about deception, about kind of being two faced. There was even a challenge called Face-Off, which unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to play. It was like, one of the times that I was safe. But yeah, I just, like, I looked at what the show was all about. It made sense. They reached out. And I was like, “this is the one that I'm going to go with.” And it was just the perfect fit. I thought I was supposed to win it. Unfortunately, I just didn't get there, I will win the next one, I suppose. But yeah, that's really kind of what got me here. And a poker player schedule is very, very flexible, so these types of things are really easy to just kind of incorporate into your daily life, unless there's like a super big event going on.
 
John Betancourt: I do want to talk a lot about your poker skills today, because you were something of a unique competitor, because I’ve noticed that some really struggle with that dynamic in the house, having to play nice, but also keep secrets. You didn't seem to have that problem all that much. And I'm curious how much of your poker training you injected into that dynamic.
 
Robbie Jade Lew: A lot. So, I did have a really hard time for figuring out whether I was going to come out as being a poker player or not. And I remember wondering, like, “is anyone going to know me?” And that was, like, a really difficult kind of, like, aspect of the show where I was like, “How do I hide? I'm not going to,” so I felt I got away with it. I did. I remember meeting Marcel, being like, “Oh, shoot. He's a gamer,” and the gamer world is really closely associated with the poker playing world. So, I was like, “Oh gosh,” I tried to keep it very low key and kind of stay away from him. So, he didn't, like, somehow connect the dots. Luckily, he was in, like, the yellow room, when we were sleeping, arrangements were even separate. So, I thought that I was keeping myself pretty, like, separate from the two because, like, if I maybe say I'm a poker player, he can associate me with who I am. And so that was one of the things. And the other things that made me nervous was meeting Wayne and hearing that he was from Vegas, um, Henderson, which is, like, right outside of Vegas. And then I heard, he like, played poker. I was like, “Oh, what do you do out there? You gamble?” He was like, “Oh I’m not a gambler.” I was like, “Oh, awesome. So, he doesn't know what I am.” Then I felt really confident about it.
 
And I thought it was hilarious that I made my handle dice, because I did not think that I gave any dice vibes off, other than the fact that I was a little snarky in the chat, they kind of associated me with it a little bit. But ultimately, I think I did a really good job of making myself sound like Tyrenna. So, it was one of those things where I just thought that I had gotten away with it all up until the very end, the only thing that I think that really kind of threw me in for a loop, and I that I still am a little like, I don't get it. I don't get why… I was, like, considered the biggest threat in the house, outside of, like, winning the first challenge. I felt like I tried to kind of stay under the radar for the most part, but for whatever reason, I was considered a big threat all the way until the end. And depending on what your strategy is, when it comes to who you want to eliminate, should you have the opportunity to do so, you're either going to get rid of the threat, the biggest threat, or the weakest link, and unfortunately, I was the biggest threat at this time. So yeah, really interesting to see that I had only gotten one vote, and I was unfortunately eliminated. But that's the crazy, like, structure, right?
 
John Betancourt: Now obviously, you know, all gaming aside, I mean, you're in that house for several days, I can only imagine there had to be a little bit of pressure that came with, you know, the constant watching over your shoulder and the constant little chats and barrages. How did you navigate that dynamic, though, in such a calm and cool manner?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: I think I decided pretty earlier on who I wanted to be in alliance with. I really connected with Xavier. I felt like Chris was somebody that I could have on my side. They were very much aligned with my personality traits, so it was really easy to connect with them. And when we had started that kind of alliance process, I felt very confident that we would be the ones that were standing in the end, so long as like somebody that we were kind of rooting against -- which our strategy was really to get rid of the weakest players in the beginning, because we all collectively felt that we were doing a good job for contributing to the prize pool. And ultimately, that's the first angle that we wanted to take. And I know that at the end, we'd all be fighting with each other, but at the beginning, it was all about just like making sure that we keep the players who are contributing to the prize pool, and maybe strategize towards kind of removing the more of the weaker players.
 
But you know, with the three new players coming in, that really threw everything for a loop. I thought we were doing a very good job. Xavier was up as The Anonymous. So, you know, it worked. Our strategy was working, and unfortunately, it just -- everything changed, and three new people came in. And I just kind of knew when Andy was saved, I'm like, shoot the person tonight, that is going to, like, eliminate somebody, is going to eliminate a threat and not somebody on the weaker side. And I already knew that I was a huge target after Andy was saved.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously how winning was on your mind, and that's obviously the competitor in you. So, I’ve got a two-part question for you. How tough was it to say goodbye, and what were some of the toughest aspects you faced in this competition?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: Um, it was, it was really, really quiet. And I feel like there's like… that you don't want to be too secretive, because then it looks like you're hiding something, but you don't want to say too much. And I felt like, if I could do it over again, looking back at it, I wish I said less in the chat. It's really, Jack makes a point of saying, how do you defend yourself without adding your handle? It's just like he did a good job of that. And it's like, you just want to… just like… it's like one-word matters, like, even the punctuation mattered, like, exclamation made it seem like you might be one person over another, versus a period versus like, I love to use, like, the ellipses, the dot, dot, dot. But nobody, only people in the real world know that I like to use that.
 
So, I remember thinking, well, they don't know how I write. And so, it's one of those things. And you had to tell DANI what to do and how to write. And they were very specific, you literally were like, “DANI question mark,” you know, because you had to really, like, make sure that you just didn't out yourself, even down to the just the punctuations. So, it was really, really, hard not to say too much, not to say too little. I just felt like I didn't want to be around those that I didn't think I had time to connect with right away, because I felt like the ones that were in alliance with me had my back. And one of the most comforting things, I think, even watching back on who eliminates me, is knowing that it wasn't somebody in my alliance. I--I'm not surprised Victoria did it. I can see why I would be the biggest threat. And it was probably a good angle on her end, because I probably would have won it.
 
John Betancourt: What did you take away from this experience?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: I'm a competitor by heart. And so that was, like, one of the really hard things is that I don't want to come off looking as too much of a competitor, because that was not my job. So, it was really, really, hard not to, like, want to really fight for it to look like I wasn't, like, a team player, but I am generally a team player, poker players, it's very much so like, a zero-sum kind of, kind of profession where it's like, you're the one man show you're like, you know, it's either you or nobody. There's no team proponent, but we try to make it a team component by having like, pieces of ourselves in tournaments and trying to kind of make it like that. But I've always been a team player. I've been like, raised in sports and everything, but this was “12 Perfect Strangers” in this house, and I knew that friendships would be made. I knew that was going to happen. I just have, like, a -- I know who I connect with immediately, and I'm very good with kind of, like first impression, type of things and intuition you have to be as a poker player.
 
And I already knew who I was going to connect with, but I also knew that ultimately there were going to have to be somebody that I might have to eliminate near the end. So, for me, the whole time, I'm thinking, it's just a game, and someone's gotta go. And that was a line that they used, obviously, in the advertisement, because we're still in a game, someone's gotta go. I can't be personally offended by how this game plays out. All I can possibly do is try not to be the biggest threat and try not to be the weakest one. But unfortunately, I wasn't able to kind of stay in the in the middle, like I think most winners are able to do, until the end, where they can really, like, hit hard. So, something I realized with other reality shows, reality game shows like this, is, like, it's always a person in the end that wasn't like, outshining everyone at the beginning that wins.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what did it mean to you to be part of a show that is this different in this dynamic?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: So, one of, like, the main reasons I wanted to come out to the show like this was like, I wanted an opportunity to kind of like, be in a competitive environment outside of this, like underground poker network, and just see what it's like, when I'm not competing with other poker players and I'm competing with, as you can see, contestants that are very, very different. All of us were so drastically different from each other. So, it's very cool to see that you can get along with people that are different personalities, but also band with them when you need to and see where your actual skill sets lie in this outside world, and really who out there is two faced.
 
It was just one of those cool, like, opportunities to really see what I can do when I'm not in like, the comfort and confinements of my poker industry. So, I had a very cool experience, and I would do it all over again if I absolutely could. And I think that if anyone ever gets the opportunity to kind of be in this, like reality game show in the middle of nowhere with people you absolutely do not know, disconnected from the outside world, that you should absolutely do it. It's one of those, like developmental opportunities that can only make you stronger. And for me, and I feel like I did develop personally and even professionally, just having that experience behind me.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.