An Interview with the Executive Producers of ‘Krishnas: Gurus. Karma. Murder.’

Key art from ‘Krishnas: Gurus. Karma. Murder.’ Courtesy of Peacock.

Joseph Freed and Allison Berkley are a pair of executive producers that have brought forth some fascinating documentaries throughout the years, such as The Girl Who Escaped: The Kara Robinson Story. Their current project, Krishnas: Gurus. Karma. Murder. explores the fascinating moral and financial corruption that plagued the Hare Krishna movement in the 70s and 80s, and we were fortunate enough to sit down with both of them, to discuss the fascinating documentary they assembled.
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John Betancourt: Let’s talk about how each of you were introduced to this case.  

Allison Berkley: I would say we both grew up having a knowledge of the Hare Krishna, seeing them in the airport, seeing them sort of in cities and we sort of always, you know, kind of wondered more about them. And in 2020, we started to kind of dig around more into the philosophy and the religion and the movement and kind of, sort of, saw this, you know, sort of very interesting American story. And that's sort of where we began and started to kind of call people from this story and dig into the story. And kind of it's been about a three-year journey of making this film and learning more and more and finding more and more participants as we go.

Joseph Freed: Just that as we did our research… this is the kind of story that continually surprises you. And I think, you know, as I grew up, I can tell you, that I'm sure my mother would have been like, “Oh, those weirdos at the airport.” And then as an adult to go back and begin to read about it, well, as you begin to read you very quickly discover the story of New Vrindaban, and Kirtananda and all of the controversy surrounding that story. But then you take another step, and you learn about Prabhupada, the founder. And that whole story set against 60s America and into the 70s. And it just continually amazed me how it became more and more of an epic story, not just about this one commune in West Virginia, but epic American story of this movement, and then an idea and how an idea gets corrupted.

John Betancourt: What inspired you two to want to bring this to the masses?

Joseph Freed: Well, of course, at first, when you hear a good compelling story, as storytellers, you just get excited about a compelling story. But I think it was because there was a larger story to be told. Yes, we could tell the story of New Vrindaban, and Kirtanananda, and all the twists and turns inherent in that story about power and about murder and about corruption. But to tell the larger story of how a larger idea can be corrupted and then also can that idea endure beyond the corruption once it took on that kind of larger scope, it became very interesting. In addition to the epic nature of the story, there is the personal story of the individuals because in many ways, this is a family story, the story of what happened to some families that were caught up in the darkest chapters of this movement’s story. Whether that's Bhima sharing his story, Bhima is Charles St. Denis is son, and also Christina and Prima, who tell, you know their part of the story. So, in addition to the epic larger theme to be able to tell those deeply personal stories, which could humanize it, was really appealing to us. And you see, and watching the documentary, Bhima’s story, in many ways, become sort of not only a heart of the story, but a reflection of that idea of, of an idea corrupted and what happens when you come out the other side?

John Betancourt: What kind of challenges went into creating this stunning documentary?

Allison Berkley: Listen, our goal was always to feel very truthful, very factual, be able to give people the opportunity to say what they wanted to say. And to sort of also make sure that the context of how the movement began. And the intentions of the movement and of its original founder, are very clear. And I think that's sometimes a challenge with a story this big and long, and, you know, 50 years, to sort of, really make sure that the setup felt accurate, to understand how hard it was for those involved, what they lost. So, it was challenging in the sense to catch all of that and to feel as though you told the story correctly. So, it just took us a long time to find all the participants, and make sure their stories tied into the foundation.

Joseph Freed: Right. Listen, this was a three-year journey. And part of that was in the beginning, taking the time necessary to communicate to potential interview subjects. What it was we were trying to accomplish, because certainly there are people within the movement who would say, “that New Vrindaban story. Is that all you're going to do? And we wanted to make it clear. Yes, we were very upfront, we are telling that story. As you can tell, we asked the questions. But in addition, that we were going to put it in the larger context, because truly you can only understand corruption, if you know what is the idea that was corrupted. You know, and that was something, you know, we knew Hare Krishna, we did not know Prabhupada when our journey began. So, to discover who that man was, what his message was, was also a very interesting part of the story. So, we wanted to represent that. And by the way, to their credit. They didn't shut the door on us. So, which is what allowed us to help tell the larger story because obviously, that material of Prabhupada from the early days, that's footage from their archive, and all those photos taken on the commune, that's from their archive. So as one of their spokespeople says in the last episode, they're not going to deny anything. Right? They're not going to try to shut that door. To their credit, they said, okay, they just wanted to understand that we were going to tell some of the larger story. And then they cooperated with us. So, I think that was we were impressed with, that they did that.

John Betancourt: What kind of challenges came forth regarding telling the story of some of the more unsavory stuff that went on at New Vrindaban?

Allison Berkley: We just wanted to make sure that the people who were sharing these parts of their life, especially Bhima, felt ready, felt honest, felt like this would do good for him not bad, we weren't trying to re-traumatize anyone. We wanted… you know, we've heard a lot from many of the documentaries we've done in our career, to talk about it helps you get through it. And so, I think we just really wanted to make sure our intention for Prema, Christina, Bhima people who really suffered a lot in this time period, felt they could share that, wanted to share that, and felt they were ready to share that. Something we needed, was to be able to tell someone's story, and be trusted to do that. that was very important to us. And it takes time and trust, and sort of, that was that to me was more of a challenge than anything because we wanted to properly relay their experiences.

Joseph Freed: And, frankly, to empower them to tell their story. Because stylistically, obviously, there's no there's no omniscient narrator in this documentary. The stories are told in the voices of the people who lived this story. So, to put them in a place where they felt safe, telling those stories.

John Betancourt: What did this journey teach each of you?

Joseph Freed: Well, I really, there's two things that I really, I connect with about this. One is just this classic theme, that any idea, no matter how pure it may seem, in the beginning, can be led astray because of the foibles of being a human, right? That anyone can be susceptible to the lure of power, and so that we all just have to be ever vigilant. I think it's a reminder of that, that these patterns keep repeating for a reason, because, you know, humans are so susceptible to that. And then also, I just was very touched, by Bhima’s story, just learning on a personal level, how someone can come through such a traumatic experience, and then where they end up on the other side, and how they end up there, can be very illuminating.

Allison Berkley: I think just the resilience of humans, with some of our participants. I was impressed by.

Joseph Freed: I'm impressed by all of their honesty as well.

John Betancourt: Why do you think now is the right time to bring this story to bear?

Allison Berkley: I kind of keep going back to sort of, some of the people who -- Bhima, Christina, Prema, who felt like they hadn't had their moment to tell their story and resolving those parts of their lives. So that's kind of really what stood out to me when we first started looking into it. Was that opportunity for them.

Joseph Freed: Well, it is interesting in terms of timing, because the second generation that was born into the movement, those who are survivors of trauma, were at a place where obviously they were ready, on their own for their own reasons, their own emotional reasons they were ready to share. Bhima was ready to share. And for the first generation it's a story that has never been told, the bits and pieces of this story had been told and certainly you can read about it, and it was in the news media. But I think to tell it, in this form, with storytellers on all sides of the story, in the movement or out of the movement… it's also of a certain age where you have to capture all of these folks who are older now, if you get my meaning, you know, that generation now is… we've lost some of them already. Many of those gurus have passed on. So, to memorialize the stories while we still have access to the storytellers it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense.

John Betancourt: What do you hope audiences take away from this series?

Allison Berkley: I always liked Wes Falls’ line when he sort of talks about how this was full of hope. And I think when you get to the ending, we could have just ended on a down and we tried to end where people were really at, which was still very hopeful. So, I hope that for the genre that this is put into that, you know, it has an unexpected outcome at the end, you know?

Joseph Freed: I'm right there with Allison, because the idea of the resilient, first the resiliency, that, especially in Bhima’s story, that no matter what happens, that you can come out the other side, and you can rediscover some sort of inner meaning. And not, and I don't mean that is necessarily exclusive to this Hare Krishna movement, but that anybody who goes through trauma can look at this story and see how you can come out the other side and start a new chapter. And then, also, I just think it's, you know, that cautionary tale about the lure of power. And what can happen when someone has too much power over other people.

John Betancourt: What are you each most proud of when it comes to this documentary.

Allison Berkley: I think the access I'm really proud of, I think we really covered a very large scope, which you could have chosen not to. I think a lot of the Bhima storyline. And a lot of the philosophy and sort of, you know, I think there's… it's a very wise group, there's a lot of wisdom in what they were after. And I think you get a lot of that throughout. And I think the ending feels different. And I really like that. You'd see your character, a lot of your characters kind of get to the end and sort of see where they are now. Yeah, I think that's those are mine.

Joseph Freed: I would say I'm, I'm proud of the fact that we gave those who lived through this story, especially the trauma survivors, we empower them to tell their story the way they wanted to tell it. And that we were also able to get all of the voices so that you could have this story from every side. So, inside the movement, law enforcement in Moundsville, so that there could be this definitive version of this story with legitimately the storytellers who actually lived through it.

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity. ‘Krishnas: Gurus. Karma. Murder.’ is streaming now on Peacock.

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