An Interview with Jay Cheel, the Writer/Director of ‘Cursed Films’

Jay Cheel is an accomplished documentarian that has turned his attention to chronicling some of the most fascinating stories and rumors surrounding famous films by way of his latest project, Cursed Films, on Shudder and we here at Nerds That Geek had the chance to sit down with Jay to learn more about this fascinating documentary series.
 
John Betancourt: What inspired Cursed Films in the first place?
 
Jay Cheel: Well, it was it was brought to me actually by a friend of mine, Owen Shiflett, who was at Shudder at the time. And they had this concept that they were internally developing, and we're taking it out to some filmmakers to pitch to them how they would approach this series. So, I had just finished a short film called Twisted, which was a doc about a local drive-in theater that was hit by a tornado, supposedly, during a screening of the movie Twister. So, it was an exploration of that urban legend. And I just talked to a lot of people who claimed they saw it happen, when it didn't really happen. And that kind of worked as like a prototype for what we ended up doing with Cursed Films. So, I knew it was right up my alley, because I'm a big film fan and horror film fan. So, it was kind of a perfect match.
 
John Betancourt: Now what’s impressed me, is the diverse makeup of films that this series covers. How do you go about selecting them?
 
Jay Cheel: We have like a long list that we, you know, discuss and narrow down to five films… based mainly on access to interview subjects, the strength of the stories connected to the films, and whether or not there's, I guess, potential to take it like elevate it beyond just like the bullet point list of things, weird things that happen that you might find on YouTube, or BuzzFeed or whatever. So, it really comes down to the characters, the interview subjects and the stories.
 
John Betancourt: Now, the amount of detail and research that goes into this series is just phenomenal. Could you by chance, walk us through what the research process looks like?
 
Jay Cheel: Sure. I mean, we so we start with the list of films. And we do use a researcher. So, we had someone named John Semley, who was great at kind of helping us sort of dig into the backstories of some of these movies. And then we'll kind of, you know, combine a bunch of details that might be of interest, and maybe little things that aren't as talked about that we could then dip into and explore. And then we just start reaching out to people and my producer, Brian Robertson, handles a lot of that. And he's great with kind of making contacts and then setting up these interviews. But the most exciting part of it, is when we have our schedule, and we go out and start filming, and then you interview someone and they say at the end of the interview, “Oh, you should talk to this person.” And then they'll give us their email address. And then as we're on the road, we email them and say, “Do you have any time this Tuesday?” And then we meet with them, and then they say, “Oh, this is great, you should talk with...” So, it kind of like organically expands and becomes a little investigation where we start following a trail in the moment, and that's the most fun part of the series. I think.
 
John Betancourt: Now something I find fascinating is how many ‘cursed legends’ surround the movies you discuss and to gain a little perspective on this, since you’ve been in the thick of it, how do you think these legends and myths surrounding these movies come to pass in the first place?
 
Jay Cheel: I mean, I think more often than not, it is. I think it's often used as a marketing thing or talking point. You know, like, thinking of the first season, The Omen episode, there are just so many crazy things connected to the making of that film. And I had the chance to talk with Richard Donner about it. Who passed away recently, unfortunately, I love Richard Donner. He's, and you know, obviously a master storyteller, in terms of popular cinema. So, sitting down with him and hearing him confirm a lot of these things that I thought were ridiculous, blew me away. But then afterwards, I also think like, well, he is a master storyteller. He knows a good story. So, of course, he's gonna lean into some of this stuff. And he's been telling these stories for, you know, close to 50 years at that point. So, he's got it down. And as these stories are told, there's, there's things added to them to make them more interesting. And then they just start to change and, and something that is like a little bit of a weird coincidence could expand into something that's like a mind blowing… confirmation of, you know, the supernatural. So, I think more often than not, that is the case. But then there are just some things that are unexplainable. And those are the weirder ones that you know, leave you really questioning. How did that happen?
 
John Betancourt: That makes total sense and that definitely ties into the season two premiere and the whole story revolving around the cast member from The Wizard of Oz that supposedly hung himself in the background for all to see. And that’s note just because I couldn’t believe how many people pour over that and look to prove it true and well… I’m wondering what you think motivates the public to dive into moments like that and try to solve the mystery?
 
Jay Cheel: I mean, I think at the core of it, you know, Steve Rash, I interviewed Steve Rash, who directed the film Under the Rainbow. And he claimed, unexpectedly that he saw a piece of film, like literal piece of cellular from Wizard of Oz, that someone showed him with a little blob on it that he said they claimed to be this Munchkin that hung themselves. And he said, you know, he says, “I believed it, it was a great story.” And I think that's what it comes down to is it's a great story, you know, the idea of the contrast of someone, a suicidal little person performer, playing the role of a munchkin in this, you know, joyful, fantastic film, being so overcome by, you know, supposedly being rejected by Judy Garland, when asking her to go on a date, that they hang themselves in the background, the contrast there is just so insane, you know, that, within this this film that families have watched for, you know, 90 years, 80 years now? Has this dark element buried within it? Which, you know, I'm not claiming it does, but some people think it does. That's just a really tempting contrast, that sort of, it's kind of the inverse of what we explored, often in the first season, which was a dark film, with dark subject matter attracting a dark energy. It's the inverse of that. It's a light film that has all this dark energy surrounding it. And that that contrast is the thing that I think draws people's attention and captures their imagination.
 
John Betancourt: Now another element about this series that impresses me, is the sheer respect that the mythos and rumors receive. How have you managed to maintain that over the past two seasons?
 
Jay Cheel: I think it's just keeping in mind, the fact, that I and the show are not claiming that in any of these films are cursed. We are talking to people who think that these films are cursed. And that's what we're interested in and in discovering, not only the stories that they claim happened, and sometimes did happen on these sets, but why they think that it can be explained by something bigger than just coincidence, and why in some cases, these stories have actually surpassed the legacy of the films, you know, that in which these events took place. So, it's really, it's not an investigative sort of like we're going to get to the heart of this and is this real or isn't this real? It's working to talk to people who are interested in getting at the heart of this and figure out why they're so interested.
 
John Betancourt: Now obviously, this is some dark material and there are a lot of dark things you have to examine. Are there any difficulties that come from that?
 
Jay Cheel: Yeah, I mean, I think it's really, I try to approach each episode, in a way where the tone is dictated by the subjects. So, if there's an interview subject that, that talks in a lighthearted manner about some dark element of a story, because maybe they don't think it actually happened, then they will dictate the tone of the episode. And I think that's just… it's my preferred approach. And I think it's the appropriate approach. I never want to put spooky music on something that someone didn't intend to be weird or, or scary. So yeah, I mean, like, it affects me, in times when I empathize with the subjects who are affected by it. Not so much that I, you know, am lingering on these dark, weird images and, you know, film clips and like the Manson story. We in the Rosemary's Baby episode, obviously, we cover the Manson family story, and there's some really dark stuff connected to that. But there's also just a weird fascination connected to it. And that element, that fascination, is the thing that we kind of, you know, latch on to in that episode, and I think that helps a little bit with not just getting completely, like overcome by the grotesque images connected to that event. And everything that came from that event. It's, yeah, it can be it can be heavy, for sure. Especially season one. More so than season two.
 
John Betancourt: Now, on a lighter note, what does it mean to you on a personal level, to be able to do this?
 
Jay Cheel: Yeah, I mean, it's great. I, you know, I've been making documentaries for… I should mention my first documentary Beauty Day, my first feature documentary is actually coming out on Blu ray. In this month, I don't know the exact date, but it was announced, so head to Vinegar Syndrome’s site and check out the posts for that. But I've been doing Doc's for a while. But this is the first one where it's really like sitting down with filmmakers. And often people who were connected to movies that I grew up watching and I love. So, to get to hear stories about the making of these movies directly from the people who were there, and often after we're finished with our interview, hearing other stories about other films, is amazing. I mean, and it's one of my favorite things about being a documentary filmmaker is it allows me the permission to enter someone's home who has a fascinating life and a fascinating story and force them to talk to me about it for you know, a couple of hours. And it's often… we leave those experiences with great connection with someone and sometimes it can extend beyond the production of the show, which is always a pleasure.
 
John Betancourt: To follow up on that, what does it mean to you… to have the fans respond and embrace this series in the manner that they have?
 
Jay Cheel: I love it. I mean, my hope is that film fans will appreciate the show, you know that people who want to hear about these stories that they may have heard about already, but hear directly from people who were there and get the full context of these stories, but also maybe learn some stuff about you know, these films and other films surrounding these productions that, you know, maybe they didn't know about. For example, this season, we have an episode on Stalker, the Andre Tarkovsky film, and that's kind of our outlier. It's like a Russian art house science fiction movie that I think a lot of people will not have seen. But it's an AMAZING film. And I think I'm hoping once they watch the episode, and we talked to Roger Deakins for that episode, and it's one of his favorite movies, so I'm hoping that people will see that and then maybe seek out that film. And then maybe that will lead them to checking out other Russian films of the era. And it's just a great way to kind of celebrate cinema, but also the people who were responsible for making some of these things. And it's not always the people that the very top we’re talking to, you know, it's often the craftsmen and craftswomen, the, the people who are responsible for getting that image on the screen as a team. And I love that aspect of it. It's awesome.
 
John Betancourt: What would you say you’re most proud of when it comes to this series?
 
Jay Cheel: I think… well, I'm proud of being able to come at these stories from an angle that is hopefully valuable, it's not just regurgitating these, these, you know, anecdotes on the screen, for the sake of just creating a show surrounding them. I hope that it's giving us the jumping off point to be able to explore things that maybe are a little more valuable than just those talking points. And to give some people that worked on these projects, and maybe haven't had a voice, the ability to get on camera, and express their feelings about some things that happened on these movies that they were a part of that were in some cases, traumatic and affected their lives in some positive ways, but also some very negative ways. So, I feel like there's, there's an ability to have them speak without them being worried that we are going to push them towards making it spooky, you know, like, they can say whatever they want. We just want the context that they're going to provide. And we will portray that, honestly, we're not looking to apply anything to their story that isn't honest, for the sake of creating a show that fits in with like a horror, sort of, you know, programming. It's… it's a true documentary series.
 
John Betancourt: Last question for you today, what are you most excited for fans to experience in season two, without spoiling anything of course.
 
Jay Cheel: I am looking forward to people learning about Stalker and experiencing the strange things connected to that film. But we shot in Chernobyl for that episode. So, there's a lot of interesting stuff connected to that. Serpent and the Rainbow, you know, getting to hear Bill Pullman talk about his experience on that. And Kathy Tyson talks about her experience. And I think there's an interesting sort of, under lying story with that episode about how a film crew bonds and can kind of come together in times that are challenging and, and work through it, and come out the other end maybe having learned a good lesson. So, I think that episode is a lot of fun as well and, and the Rosemary's Baby episode, to be honest, I rarely, you know, I will say if something I think something's sucks, I think all of the episodes this season, we’re really happy with everything. And I think film fans will appreciate the way in which each one hopefully feels like a kind of definitive documentary about this aspect of the production of those films. So, I'm proud of that. And just the variety of voices that we got to talk about these things.

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity. Season two of 'Cursed Films' premieres on Shudder, today, April 7, 2022. 

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