Steve Fishman is a highly accomplished journalist, that has been at the center of some critical stories. His current project is The Burden: Empire on Blood, a podcast that chronicles how Steve dove into an uneven and fascinating criminal case from the 1990s, and we had the distinct honor of sitting down with Steve to discuss this incredible journey.
 
John Betancourt: I'd love to start by getting to know what it was specifically that stood out about Calvin's case that really ignited the desire in you to pursue this truth.
 
Steve Fishman: What gets me started is somehow talking to Calvin through a guy I know in prison with him, calls me up cold, starts running off the facts of the case. You know, very emotional, and then, you know, expecting me to evaluate and jump on board, and I'm, frankly, kind of put off. But it gets to the moment. Maybe it's his energy, his aura, some kind of feeling he communicates. I know he's talking to me from a pay phone in the yard of a prison. I know he's desperate. He's like the only guy in his corner, and I just, in my way, imagined what it must be like to be that alone and that powerless. And I said, “Send me the transcripts.” And I read those transcripts, and it's just amazing when you get into the courtroom scene and maybe this was particular to the 90s, but the courtrooms in in the Bronx, you start to think, “Is this possible?” You know, there's all, all kinds of deals, and it's so obvious that the prosecutor’s running the courtroom and cheating and lying, and people walk in having gotten deals to walk free. And so, you know, but once I got in that door and sat down with the material, I was hooked. And frankly, I was hooked for seven years, which was not good, not good for my career. (Laughter) And you know, John, I really did not have an opinion on whether he was guilty or not. And there were times where I really thought, you know, six witnesses testify against you? I mean, how many of them are lying? Did you really do this?
 
John Betancourt: Something that I really noticed as I was listening, is that not only is this, you know, so emotional in some respects, because there are some parts that really are very deeply, deeply moving. But you present such an amazing two-sided piece here, because you really do point out the fact, correctly, that, Calvin did commit crimes, but he's still a person. But also, you know, the justice system has its laws, but it also has its flaws. And I'm very curious, how you manage to keep this so incredibly objective when you were so close to it.
 
Steve Fishman: That's a really good question. And, you know, I think some people might see it as a flaw frankly, you know, but I really go in and I find myself kind of exercising empathy, like the person I'm with, I'm trying to understand the world from their point of view. And I don't think it's like necessarily something I sit down to decide to do. It's almost like it's a weakness, you know, like some kind of lack of strength in my personality that somehow is, you know, kind of taken in by this person who's telling me something that, on one hand, I know may not be true. On the other hand, I believe that they believe it, which gives it some kind of interesting credibility. I mean, I'll give you an example. So, I'm with Turtle Man. You know, can you believe that the prosecutor's nickname is Turtle Man?
 
You know, it's a Law and Order topic, but, we're in Coen Brothers territory, so, you know, and there's literally 20 turtles in his two story house, and one of them clomping down stairs as we're talking. And so, you know, there's this guy whose life is rescuing turtles and, as he would say, putting bad guys away. Now I asked him, I said to him, “Well, have you ever been wrong? Have you ever had a conviction reversed?” And he said, “No, never.” I knew he had a conviction reversed. I read the decision a judge really did it, but I sat, and I thought about I said, you know, this is like part of his worldview that he saw. He’s a good guy going after bad guys, making the streets safer. And somehow for me, you know, I feel like that was what I wanted to communicate. It wasn't that this guy got caught in a lie, it was that this guy's conception of himself was as a good guy who was cleaning up the streets for decent citizens, you know. And it's the same with Father Frank. I mean, can you believe the detective has a nickname, Father Frank?
 
I mean, he, you know, is a guy who didn't know who Martin Luther King was, in 1965, I mean, you could get stuck on that and start to think, you know, who is this guy to go out and police neighborhoods that are largely filled with black people? I mean, but you know, like for me it was, you know, this is New York. This is this guy. This is a cop who also thinks he wants to do good. But I think, and I've covered cops enough, and, you know, done another series recently about cops, but the trap that they seem to fall into is that they feel like somehow, in their gut, they know how the world works, and they know who's lying, and they know who's not lying. And so, the kind of cognitive dissonance of coming from a background, in this case of, you know, Italian kids growing up, all of them going into civil service, and, you know, dealing with people from a rougher background who you think you can understand, you know, that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily register for them. And you know, I'm just going to pre associate here a minute. But one of the things, one of the reasons that we did this director's cut, this re-release, is that the lives of our characters in six years had just moved on, and they moved on in, like, real ways, substantive ways. I mean, Cal gets out and he starts a business. He starts a business called Ryderz Van Service.
 
He's researched, like, seven business plans in prison, right? He actually takes one of them. And, you know, don't forget, like the guy's a drug kingpin, that's essentially a businessman. So, you know, he was running a pretty successful street level business, and he gets out and he applies it. He figures, you know, all these families need transportation to their loved ones in prison. So, he says, “I'm starting the Uber of prison transport.” Now it's not like Uber says I'm starting the “Prison Riders”, Van commuting, but Cal does start this business that takes off. And I mean, I talked to him the other day, he's got like five Mercedes busses that are running passengers back and forth. And then he's actually got a really nice, big house in Houston too, but, but then you know, to get back to Father Frank. Father Frank is, you may remember in the series, moves in and gets Dwight Robinson not to confess which is his specialty, but to unconfess, a related skill, clearly, Dwight unconfessess, Cal goes back to Prison. Fast forward five years, Father Frank's comportment, his behavior with people he's trying to get, confessed or unconfessed, is called in question, and in fact, three of the people who he solicited elicited confessions from have their convictions overturned because of the techniques he used.
 
So, Father Frank, who kind of emerges as this unblemished detective with, in some ways, a golden gut, you know, rescues the case for the prosecution, but of course, who, in the end, gets the Calvin case wrong, or certainly at odds with the judge, he becomes a guy who is suspected kind of at the most fundamental level. He believes his skill is talking to people and getting them to confess and District Attorney investigates it and says, “I'm reopening 31 of your cases where you got confessions, because I really don't know if they're going to stand up.” So, here's a guy who's, like famous within his police corps, and really moves to a public infamy. So anyhow, the re-release kind of is able to kind of capture these lives after these, this kind of very concentrated, moment in their lives, you know, peak moment, headline moment. But, you know, lives go on.
 
John Betancourt: You know, you spent seven years on this. What kind of challenges did you run into and putting this whole sweeping story together?
 
Steve Fishman: Well, one of the challenges was, I was working at New York Magazine as a staff writer at the time, and I, I couldn't get them to do a story, you know? I kept thinking, “Oh, my God, I got this great story.” And they kept saying, “Drug dealer might be a murderer. Come on.” (Laughter) So I, you know, I spent time with this on an ongoing basis, and, you know, it wasn't helping New York Magazine. So, in kind of, just in terms of a challenge, you know, the challenge was finding the time and the motivation to do it when it was definitely against my self-interest to pursue this. I mean, reporting wise, you know, it was, it was really, finally, finally getting to that person who was an eyewitness to the crime. I mean, it was, you know… I went down with the private investigator. And so, with him, I was the first person to talk to this woman who, as a pregnant, 16-year-old, sat on the stoop a few feet away from the actual shooting and saw who did it. And for me, that was just, I mean, it was momentous. I'd spent at that point… I'd probably spent six years thinking about this crime, going back and forth. You know, Cal’s story about himself was that he was never violent, but, you know, he carried a gun. He lived in an extraordinarily violent world, in an extraordinarily kind of like -- alongside all kinds of perpetrators of violence, some of that violence directed at him.
 
So, it became a little hard to believe that Cal was not a guy who would use a gun. So, I kind of was contending with that on one hand and on the other hand, this idea that the judicial system, the justice system, had kind of rammed through a conviction of this guy in an unfair way. And then finally, you know, I get to sit down, sit down with this woman, Nakia, nicknamed Evelina, if you can believe that. There's one for Law and Order. They ripped off my stories before. (Laughter) Evelina sits down and she tells me in detail how she saw and then who she saw commit the crime, which actually sends a shiver on my spine, because this is a guy that I've been talking to now for years. He's in prison for a different murder. But the guy she names is somebody that I've become quite friendly with. I mean, he's somebody that, you know, I send stuff to in prison. He wants Sudoku, because he tells me that it's going to keep him sharp in old age. He's dying to get Timberlands because that is apparently the most sought-after shoe in prison, though we later learned, the problem with getting Tim's in prison is that they're two tone, and because of gang activity, you're not allowed to wear anything two tone in prison. So, he shut down.
 
Anyhow, the point of this, being that this is the guy who's named, and I then need to go to prison, and I need to tell him that he's been named as a killer. And I remember that moment really well, because in prison, they let me sit -- it's almost a conference room, you know, with bars on the windows, beat up chairs, beat up table. But he and I are sitting across from one another, so about four feet from one another, and I got my little favorite tape recorder running. For some reason they forgot to put a guard in there that day. So, it was just me, and, you know, I know him, and I kind of like him, but you know, I've also heard him, even on the phone, go into like, another mode where, he'll say something like, “I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna beat that guy up. I just got to do it,” so I'm not entirely, you know, convinced that this is like interview protocol here entirely, and I'm about to tell the guy, listen, I know you killed this guy because this eyewitness said so. I… a Lieutenant comes into the room, notices that there's nobody there, no guard is there, no corrections officer, and says, “What the hell's going on? “And puts one in there, which point I go to the restroom for a few minutes, and I leave my tape recorder on. I always use my tape recorder, and I catch the conversation that Dwight has with the corrections officer, where they start joking about how… Dwight could have killed me.
 
“I could have killed him.” “Yeah, right.” “He's not dead, is he?” And, like, for me, that was, like, a very big moment, because, you know, I entered into this as like a reporter, you know, college educated, all those kind of typical things. Unlike these guys who seem very much, you know, conversational, relatable, and at some level, you know, you get brought up against the fact that they come from a different world. They would say that to me, “I come from a different world than you.” But in terms of, like, the hardest challenge, I think it was, it was getting the information that finally relieved me of the burden of “is he or isn't he,” I finally was able to feel wholeheartedly he didn't do this, and that just made me feel fantastic because independently, I liked Cal and wanted to believe he wasn't guilty. And finally, I'd gotten to this woman in North Carolina, 800 miles away, who'd seen this incident in the Bronx, 30 years earlier.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have for you today, obviously, this couldn't have come out at a better time, I think, with the climate as it as it stands, with how we feel about the justice system and how people feel about wrongful incarceration. And I'm very curious, what you hope audiences take away from this story of flaws and wins and sorrow.
 
Steve Fishman: You know, the first thing that I want people to experience is, I want them to be immersed in the experience of the criminal justice system. I mean, I want them to be entertained, but I want them to be enthralled. I want them to feel like after they listen to this, that they know how things work. You know, not in every case, but certainly in some cases. I want them to understand the power relationships and the loneliness and what it takes to win against the system. I mean, one of the things that I came away with was this incredible respect for the unbelievable determination of a guy like Calvin over a period of 20 years. And as you know, his lawyer that he believes in and loves dies, and Calvin has two weeks, and then he recovers. But you know, like in a grander way, I think, you know, we wrestle, we being society, voters, citizens. We wrestle with what we should do with people who commit crimes or people who are accused of crimes. And you know, we go up and down right, like in the Giuliani era, even in Dinkins era.
 
So, this is the early 90s when crime was off the charts. We, I mean, the taxpayers, the voters. We wanted crime solved. We didn't care how it got done. So, I want... I want people to understand that we can't let the wrong people go to prison, but I want them to understand too, that this isn't a distant story about what some cops did and what some prosecutors did. This is a story about who you put in office, what you expect from them, and how you treat the public dialogue around punishment. I mean, you know, as you said, Cal was a bad dude. Yeah, I mean, there's, it's possible to say, especially in 1995 when he goes to prison, when there's 2000 murders a year, and when a lot of them are around the crack trade. It's possible to say, you know, “The guy's a drug dealer, who cares,” you know, throw him in prison, let someone else sort it out. And that's kind of a rational view in the midst of a crime wave. But you can't then, 20 or 30 years later, say, “Oh, my God. How did this happen? Who are these rogue cops, who are these delinquent prosecutors who go out and do this, you know?”
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Christopher Chung is a supremely talented and accomplished actor that has earned his way into our hearts via his portrayal of the sometimes loveable, sometimes frustrating Roddy Ho in the Apple TV+ series, Slow Horses, and with season four underway, we were able to sit down with Christopher to discuss his time on the show.
​
John Betancourt: I would love to know what it means to you an actor to be back for a fourth and epic season.
 
Christopher Chung: I mean, I think with the way that streaming is now, like, you're lucky to get past the first two seasons, so the fact that we've managed to get to Season Four is a godsend, in some ways, and to be able to do it on a show that's been so well received and loved by the audiences is a bonus. So, it's a very exciting season. I think it's one of the best seasons that was done.
 
John Betancourt: I have to agree, and you actually bring me right to my next question, the fact that fans just cannot get enough of this show. And I'm very curious, what you think allows for this show to resonate so well with audiences.
 
Christopher Chung: I think it's… they're just, they're very relatable characters. You know, it is a spy thriller, but it's not in the James Bond world. It's not sleek, it's not sexy. It's very much driven from a place of reality and truth. And I think when people fantasize about what it's like to be a spy… it makes it a little bit more touchable and accessible, because all of the characters are forward. And I think that's what people really enjoy about the Slow Horses and, you know, being invited into Slough House to see to see us all in our fuckery. (Laughter from Christopher and John)
 
John Betancourt: That also leads me to my next question. Because you bring up a really good point about the realism of the show, and that applies to the characters, and I’m very curious how you as an actor have made Roddy so real and so dynamic, because he's someone that we instantly can just think of in our own workplaces.
 
Christopher Chung: Yeah, I think you know, someone asked me that question the other day, if Roddy was based on any one person in particular that I knew. And I'm surprised by how many people come up to me nowadays and say, “I know someone exactly like your character,” and it kind of flabbergasted me, because I've kind of made him an amalgamation of, like, some of the worst bits of some of the worst people that I know, but also some of the like…. I've tried to make him very well… I've tried to make him likable in what he does. I think the thing that the trick with Roddy is, is that he sits on the edge of being an absolute prick that you don't want to see any more of. So, making sure that everything that I play with him is coming from a place that's not malicious, you know.
 
John Betancourt: I get that. Kind of just that, there's an innocence, but also a purpose behind his madness.
 
Christopher Chung: Correct.
 
John Betancourt: Out of curiosity, just as a quick follow up to that one, because I'm always curious with actors that get a play character that are so not them. Does Roddy ever come home with you mentally, or is he somebody that stays at work?
 
Christopher Chung: (Laughs) What's funny is, like, I've never lived with a character for as long as Roddy. And he's, he is everywhere in my head. Now, you know, I was in New York with my wife a few months ago, and we were shopping, and I saw a t-shirt that completely resonated with him, and I had to buy it. You know, I look at -- whenever you're out in the world, because you're always trying to, like, think of new ideas, or how would your character respond to certain things, he's always kind of there, narrating slightly like that.
 
John Betancourt: Now this show is, obviously, an actor's paradise. You each get to do such incredible work, week in and week out, that obviously leaves us in awe. And I'm curious what it means to you as an actor to work on a series that really does give you so much to work with.
 
Christopher Chung: It's a… it's a gift, isn't it? I mean, I think every actor has been in a situation where, you know, the material is not great, or your costars are not great, or the conditions that you're working under are not great. And you know for the last four years that we've been making the show, all of those boxes have been ticked in in an excellent way like that. It's an absolute dream of a job to have. So, I feel extremely lucky every time I step on set, you know, to get to work with Gary (Oldman), with Saskia (Reeves), Jack (Lowden), Kristen (Scott Thomas), you know, we are like, in so many ways, like a small kind of dysfunctional family, but it's great fun. So, it's excellent.
 
John Betancourt: I am curious, without spoiling, what you're looking forward to audiences experiencing in the next five, six weeks, without any spoilers of course.
 
Christopher Chung: I think, um, there's the big twists that come. I think you know, especially from episode one, it has left so many questions open. You know, is River really dead? What slow horse is in like… in jeopardy? There's so many threads that need to be tied up within the next five episodes. It's really difficult to choose one that you would focus on. So. Yeah, we'll go with the twists.
 
John Betancourt: The last question that I have for you today, over the course last four years, what have you been most proud of thus far when it comes to your work on the show.
 
Christopher Chung: At the end of season one, there's a line when River tells Roddy why he's in Slough House, and he says to River at the end, “They tried to cage me up, but you can't cage a dragon.” And James Hawes, our director of season one, had just left the camera running, and that is something that just kind of fell out of my mouth with any preparation. It was just a bit of improv, but it made it into the cut, and I feel like it was a moment for me where I’m like… I hadn't thought about that line. It kind of came out of nowhere, and it just really meant that I had found Roddy at the end of by season one. So, I think that's that was probably one of my proudest moments.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

This week’s episode of The Anonymous on USA Network saw another surprise elimination take place. Since Jack was quick to send home one of the newcomers, in Wayne. Whom we all thought might last a little longer given his natural attachment to the guile required for this competition. But alas, it wasn’t meant to me and to properly bid Wayne farewell, we sat down with him to discuss his experiences on the show.

John Betancourt: I would love to start with… all of you have an amazing journey as to how you came onto the show. Yours is obviously one of the more amazing ones, because you were a surprise contestant. How did that come to be?
 
Wayne Nichols: Well, you know, I wasn't aware of that component until we arrived on location, and, you know, they let me know then that it was looking more likely that I would be a surprise house guest. So, you know, I was obviously hoping at that point that I would have entered the house initially with the other house guests. But, you know, I was certainly thrilled to still be on the show and have an opportunity. I think the biggest challenge for me was just, you know, how does my approach differ now that I'm coming in a little bit later in the game, so I had to kind of decide, right, like, how aggressive… or do I play it cool? Initially, that was the balancing act that I really tried to find, you know, when I entered the home.
 
John Betancourt: I do want to talk a bit about your strategy today, because your strategy was very, very bold. I would definitely say one of the most impactful things about your time on the show is how well you shook it up. All of my friends that watched it last week, were texting me about how exciting and intense that Face-Off was, and I'm curious what brought to life that strategy of trying to get everybody off their feet.
 
Wayne Nichols: Listen, my back was in the corner. I wish I could tell you, you know, I've got this master plan, and I'm, you know, curling my mustache here. The reality was, I knew I was in trouble. There was a vibe that I just felt in that house after I caught a vote, and I was obviously up for elimination. I knew, and I didn't want to leave that house with any regret. So, I didn't actually have a plan of what I was going to do in the Face-Off, and I'm so glad that in the Face-Off wasn't chosen to go first. I was so glad that I was actually able to go a little bit later so I could see how the process worked. After I did that, I'm like, “You know what? I'm going to go ahead and throw a truth grenade,” my truth grenade, right, as I call it, and see if I can shake things up. And I was, I was really happy, by far.
 
I'm glad that you mentioned how exciting it was to see that. I did not know the other players reactions or see the other players their facial reactions. It actually made my day to see Lilly and to see Jack, and to see everybody saying, “Oh my goodness,” right, and Victoria, it made me feel like a million dollars because, you know, I had to do something. I had to take a shot, and whether or not it's a failure or a success, on my part, it was something that there's no regret, like, I leave there and say, “All right, at least I tried everything I could to maybe shake the game up or get people to second guess their alliances.”
 
John Betancourt: Now you said something very interesting during your exit. That you didn't think you were going to win it all when you came in. I'm very curious as to why you didn't think that.  You're the first contestant I've talked to that didn't think that they were going to go all the way, that's not an insult mind you, but it's very pragmatic
 
Wayne Nichols: So yeah, I appreciate you saying that I'm a realist. I have a life goal of… and I always say, “small goals, big victories.” And I've been saying small goals, big victories for every aspect of my life, personally, professionally, in business, right? I like the idea of setting a small goal and not choosing too big of a goal, where you set yourself up for failure. So, for example, you know, if my goal is to lose… 20 pounds, right? We'll start with the first 5, right? Let's get to the first five, right? And I feel like when you have those small goals, they become big victories. Of course, I wanted to go to the very end, but I think I would have been setting myself up for failure if I said, “All right, it's a failure if I don't make it and go all the way.” So, I just wanted to be like you said, a little bit more pragmatic, and I wanted to be more realistic. It didn't mean I wasn't shooting for the stars. I just, you know, I had a more realistic approach.
 
John Betancourt: Now, since you and Bismah, and Victoria came into the competition a little later, how tough was it coming into it was already an intense dynamic?
 
Wayne Nichols: Now, as the new guy, very tough, more so when I saw the caliber of players that were in the house, obviously I had not met the three previous players. I'll throw out Xavier's name. When I saw Xavier that first night, immediately I was caught off guard, right? How could a player of his caliber having won the show that he's previously been on, how could he still be in this game after not one, not two, but three eliminations? Seeing him kind of caught me off guard. And, you know, I had to constantly assess, do I hit the ground running, or do I try to play it cool and just build potential alliances? It was really a balancing act. I don't know how I did, because I'm sitting here, but at the same time, it was still thrilling to have that challenge and to say, “All right, you know what? Let's go out make some lemonade, you know?” So that's what I tried to do.
 
John: Out of curiosity, since you had that more pragmatic understanding was it tough then to say goodbye or was it a little bit easier when you kind of have those expectations set a little bit.
 
Wayne Nichols: Great question, I told myself, no matter what happens, how far I get, let's, you know, not be dramatic, you know. Let's make sure everybody knows it's just a game. I had a fantastic time. I, you know, made it very clear, no hard feelings, of course, you know, I… you know what? I'll say, a roller coaster is the perfect analogy. Everybody talks about the ups and downs of a roller coaster, but everyone also says, “I wish it was a little bit longer.” And that's exactly what I wish my roller coaster ride was. Just a little bit longer, but it still was a roller coaster ride.
 
John Betancourt: With that in mind, since you’ve had a little time to reflect, what would you had done differently if you had a chance to do this again?
 
Wayne Nichols: Great question, and I have thought about it. The only thing, the only single thing I would have done differently, I would have voted for myself during that last chat session. I think that would have potentially given me a better chance of securing The Anonymous because, again, you watch it back, Dillian obviously had a very strong and correct gut instinct as to who Light Bulb was. I would be willing to bet, if I had voted for myself, it would have made some people second guess as to whether or not Light Bulb was really me.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously, this is a very cool experience to begin with, something that you know. So, if you get to do what are you going to miss the most about being on this show?
 
Wayne Nichols: I am going to miss, believe it or not, the production value. I'm a huge fan of reality shows. I'm a huge fan as to what goes into making them. Listen, it was the most fantastic experience, not just in front of the camera, but to see what goes on behind. Yeah, I'm just gonna miss that, because I took, took that in as a… sort of like a fan of how these shows are made and produced and everything. So, yeah, I don't think I will ever see anything with that level of production value ever again. So I really will miss that, but I will say, in this day and age, it's really nice that, you know, I'll be able to keep in touch, obviously, with fellow cast members. And I'm also excited about that too.
 
John Betancourt: Yeah, I've heard that a couple of times, and I think that's really cool, that all of you still stay in touch like that, because it speaks to the uniqueness of the show. And speaking of that, what did it mean to you to be part of a series that really is so original and so new.
 
Wayne Nichols: You're spot on. The original and the new. You know, just, let's talk about the concept, right? Like, you know, The Anonymous. You don't even know who held the power. You don't even know who is holding the power. And so, you think about other shows where players can say, “Oh, this person's holding the power this week. Let me go ahead and see if I can, you know, make some inroads with them. Or let me see if I can align myself with them.” You don't know who has that power, and that's really the magic part of the game, right? You never know if the person you're talking to is the person who saved you, and if that person did save you, they can't tell you, “Hey, by the way, Wayne, I could have voted you off when I was The Anonymous and I did or I didn't,” right? That part's really exciting, and that's a concept we've never seen. And again, I'm a huge fan of reality shows. That's what will make The Anonymous stand out, especially in this inaugural season.
 
John: I think we all learn a little something about ourselves and anything we knew that we try. And I'm curious, what you took away from this experience?
 
Wayne: Oh, you know, what I took away… going with my gut instinct, you know, the times that I felt that I was in trouble, guess what? I was in trouble, the time that I was, you know, forming a genuine connection. Those connections were genuine. There's always gameplay in the background. But yeah, I think for me, I'm just, I'm very happy with the game that I could play, with what I was given to play with. And yeah, I think going with my gut, sticking with my gut, is something that I’m glad I didn’t just go ‘eh’ with. I knew I was in trouble during the Face-Off, I was like, “Yeah, I need to make a move here, because I'm going to regret it if I don't.” So, I went with my gut on that one, too.
 
John: Last question that I have for you, we're almost proud of what you accomplished on this show.
 
Wayne Nichols: Ooh, I am really the most proud of nobody second guessing that I was a custodian or a janitor. I'm really glad that no one was like, “this is kind of weird,” right? I don't know what they'll show when my elimination episode airs, but I can tell you, having lived that moment… people appeared to be genuinely shocked when I told them what my former profession was. That was exciting for me, because I kind of, I really struggled with, do I tell people what I do? What's the profession that I tell them? And I chose the most, you know, boring profession. And I, I think what's most exciting is when I tell… I think it was Marcel. I tell Marcel that I'm a custodian or a janitor, and he just goes, “Oh, that's nice.” (Laughs) You can tell, like he did not want to ask me any more questions. So, it's a total, like, a compliment that he wasn't like, “so what do you really do?” And you know, it was, yeah, great that he was like, “Okay, move on to the next subject, because this guy is a custodian,” right? I don't know. I just loved that part of it. That was a great moment.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Reece Ritchie and Richard Fleeshman are a pair of highly accomplished actors that happen to play a pair of highly beloved characters on their current project, The Ark, on SYFY. For these two have taken the geek world by storm with their incredible portrayals of Lieutenant Spencer Lane and Lieutenant James Brice and to celebrate their work and celebrate the remaining episodes in season two, we sat down with both gentlemen to discuss all things The Ark.
​
John Betancourt I would love to start off by getting to know what it means to each of you as actors be back for a second season.
 
Reece Ritchie: Oh, it's such a joy, like on a personal level, because you've already done the groundwork with meeting everyone, getting to know everybody, and you get to, you get to pick up at a very fun stage, you know, very fun point in the whole thing. And so, just for the show, it's really nice when you work really hard on something that is received in a nice way and that fans want more. I mean, that's every actor's dream. So, to go back, you know, we're very close to the crew as well. We spend an awful lot of time with the Serbian crew. So, it's just, there are no negatives, really. It's just so nice to be back around everybody and then to explore new territory with the show as well. A lot of fun.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, I mean, just adding to that, really, like it was, it was kind of a reach into the unknown, as any first season is. It's essentially an elongated pilot, you know, you hand out to the world and see if they're going to like it. So, for people to come back and say, “Yeah, we liked it enough to want to do a second season,” that means the absolute world. And again, you know, as Reece was saying, you kind of jump onto a moving train in season two, whereas season one, you're establishing who people are, what their motives are, there's a lot of explanation about backstories and things that kind of gets in the way of character building and narrative and stuff, because it's essential. But when you can arrive at season two going well, “we know you know who these people are, now we can just start to have fun.” So, we've definitely been given the opportunity in season two, some crazy, crazy stuff has happened, and some more crazy stuff is about to happen. So yeah, people are going to be very shocked, I think.
 
John Betancourt: This is, obviously, an absolutely beloved series, and I’m also wondering what the incredible fan response has meant to each of you.
 
Reece Ritchie: Well, you kind of have a recipe that you try and stick to, but you never know. You know, you can try your best and do everything. But ultimately, we're making a piece of entertainment for a fan base. Without the fans, the show wouldn't exist. So of course, it's pivotal that they, you know, when they respond positively, it's just great. It's, you know, it means it's a job well done. Also, I really like to read their guesses about what's going to happen, because they come up with these really weird and wonderful theories. And you think, oh, actually, some of them are really interesting as well. Some of them are right, some of them completely wrong. But that's a lot of fun, because you don't always know how things are coming across entirely, because we're on the inside, our view is kind of tainted with bias, but with them, they have a very kind of unencumbered view of the whole thing, and that's a lot of fun to witness and to read.
 
Richard Fleeshman: I was told ahead of time; how intense it can be in the sci fi world. I hadn't really done much sci fi before, and they weren't wrong, like the fans are, unlike anything else you can do. It's such, I don't know. It's like, a real deep feeling of togetherness with the show, and also a breadth of knowledge, like people will talk to me if they like the show, and then they'd be like, “this episode from this thing, and years ago, in 1978 and there was this thing.” I'm like, “Wow,” it's so impressive, and that's… how wonderful to have a fan base that's so passionate.
 
Reece Ritchie: It’s been a bit a scary too, right? Because you don't want to mess it up.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Oh yeah! I'm like, “’78. Wait, what was that?” (Laughter from all)
 
Reece Ritchie: That's why Jonathan Glassner and Dean (Devlin) are so good. They both know the tropes of this genre, and they know that, you know, you can really step on a problem, if you go against something that's a well-established, established trope or convention in this genre. So, yeah, I think we've always been in very safe hands with them, with those two.
 
John Betancourt:  You guys have had some really amazing moments, each of you as actors this season, obviously the clone thing for Lane, a lot of what's going on with Brice, and I'm very curious what it means to you as actors to be able to work on a series that gives you that kind of meat to work with.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Well, that's what's nice, I guess, because first and foremost, we're on a sci fi show, so we know that there's going to be fights and starships and all that kind of stuff that goes with that. What I didn't realize was how much the writers were going to also really invest in character work and the pain and the joy, and the love and the fallouts and the tears and all that stuff that they have seemingly wanted to embrace just as much, which was a really nice treat, because you never know. On the way in, I only had read episode one when we joined the show, so you don't know what the plans are. It could have just been like, fight, fight, fight. Planet, planet, planet.
 
Reece Ritche: Aliens. (Laughs)
 
Richard Fleeshman: Aliens, aliens, aliens. So, it's been, it's been really lovely and how much the writers seem receptive to --- very often, if we've met them various dinners or wrap parties and things, and they've said, “Oh, we saw that thing with you, and Reece in that scene that time. And that sparked this idea that we thought…” that's a lovely place to be in where you feel that this actual real time feedback as an actor going back to the writers’ room, and they're feeding off what our brilliant cast are doing and taking it back. And so, no, it's been, it's been a real joy. Really has.
 
Reece Ritchie: They've kept us apart ever since. Richard.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, no more of that. (Laughter from all.)
 
Reece Ritchie: Brilliant, yeah, as well, like they, they trust us, which is great, because there's one thing, some of these turns are quite hard to do, you know, because sci fi throws some real kind of turns at you dramatically, and you have to make them work, and you have to make them stand up to an audience. And there's a lot of trust on the creator side, which doesn't go unnoticed. You know, we have, we have a little bit of artistic license too, you know, because we're with these characters day in and day out. So that's very cool to feel like the leadership trusts you with certain decisions and interpretations of certain things.
 
John Betancourt: Last question that I have you gentlemen today, without any spoilers, of course, what are you most looking forward to audiences experiencing in the final three episodes of the season.
 
Reece Ritchie: Shock and awe.
 
Richard Fleeshman: Yeah, there's going to be a lot of, I mean, just watch the, watch the Twitters. In the next three weeks, Twitter's going to go nuts. You'll see it's a big one. It's a big one coming.
 
Reece Ritchie: There's a few big ones coming.
 
Richard Fleeshman: There's a… we certainly didn't see them coming. And that was, that's a big deal, because, you would assume that we would, knowing the team and knowing the scripts and but I didn't see any of it coming, which is, yeah, and I guess what makes the rest of the season different to other shock and twists and turns that usual sci fi shows would take is that the ones that are on their way… kind of change the course of the show forever. They’re not like, “oh, well, next episode. It's back to normal,” as a lot of these are. And I think, it took, even as a cast, it took us a little while to go like, “Wow. These are bold, big decisions,” but I know myself when I'm watching a shown -- you know, why was The Sopranos so good? Because people used to just get randomly killed. It didn't matter who you were. Or, you know, suddenly there would be an explosion here, or there was a big bank robbery, and you'd be like, never saw this coming. So, no, it was just, it's lovely that they're brave enough to be like, let's just pull the rug out and see what happens.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.

Another week, another surprise elimination on the USA Network series, The Anonymous. For after four weeks of navigating under the radar and doing her best to misdirect and use her poker skills to win the match, Robbi Jade Lew was sent home by Victoria and to properly bid farewell to Robbi, we here at NTG sat down with her to discuss her time on the show.
 
John Betancourt: I'm very curious to start with how you came to be involved in the show as a poker player.
 
Robbi Jade Lew: So, I don't know if you've noticed there's a lot of poker players on a lot of these reality type of, like, competition shows. They tend to love us. (Laughter from Robbi and John) This one was obviously a very good opportunity for poker player to get on there. It's a show about deception, about kind of being two faced. There was even a challenge called Face-Off, which unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to play. It was like, one of the times that I was safe. But yeah, I just, like, I looked at what the show was all about. It made sense. They reached out. And I was like, “this is the one that I'm going to go with.” And it was just the perfect fit. I thought I was supposed to win it. Unfortunately, I just didn't get there, I will win the next one, I suppose. But yeah, that's really kind of what got me here. And a poker player schedule is very, very flexible, so these types of things are really easy to just kind of incorporate into your daily life, unless there's like a super big event going on.
 
John Betancourt: I do want to talk a lot about your poker skills today, because you were something of a unique competitor, because I’ve noticed that some really struggle with that dynamic in the house, having to play nice, but also keep secrets. You didn't seem to have that problem all that much. And I'm curious how much of your poker training you injected into that dynamic.
 
Robbie Jade Lew: A lot. So, I did have a really hard time for figuring out whether I was going to come out as being a poker player or not. And I remember wondering, like, “is anyone going to know me?” And that was, like, a really difficult kind of, like, aspect of the show where I was like, “How do I hide? I'm not going to,” so I felt I got away with it. I did. I remember meeting Marcel, being like, “Oh, shoot. He's a gamer,” and the gamer world is really closely associated with the poker playing world. So, I was like, “Oh gosh,” I tried to keep it very low key and kind of stay away from him. So, he didn't, like, somehow connect the dots. Luckily, he was in, like, the yellow room, when we were sleeping, arrangements were even separate. So, I thought that I was keeping myself pretty, like, separate from the two because, like, if I maybe say I'm a poker player, he can associate me with who I am. And so that was one of the things. And the other things that made me nervous was meeting Wayne and hearing that he was from Vegas, um, Henderson, which is, like, right outside of Vegas. And then I heard, he like, played poker. I was like, “Oh, what do you do out there? You gamble?” He was like, “Oh I’m not a gambler.” I was like, “Oh, awesome. So, he doesn't know what I am.” Then I felt really confident about it.
 
And I thought it was hilarious that I made my handle dice, because I did not think that I gave any dice vibes off, other than the fact that I was a little snarky in the chat, they kind of associated me with it a little bit. But ultimately, I think I did a really good job of making myself sound like Tyrenna. So, it was one of those things where I just thought that I had gotten away with it all up until the very end, the only thing that I think that really kind of threw me in for a loop, and I that I still am a little like, I don't get it. I don't get why… I was, like, considered the biggest threat in the house, outside of, like, winning the first challenge. I felt like I tried to kind of stay under the radar for the most part, but for whatever reason, I was considered a big threat all the way until the end. And depending on what your strategy is, when it comes to who you want to eliminate, should you have the opportunity to do so, you're either going to get rid of the threat, the biggest threat, or the weakest link, and unfortunately, I was the biggest threat at this time. So yeah, really interesting to see that I had only gotten one vote, and I was unfortunately eliminated. But that's the crazy, like, structure, right?
 
John Betancourt: Now obviously, you know, all gaming aside, I mean, you're in that house for several days, I can only imagine there had to be a little bit of pressure that came with, you know, the constant watching over your shoulder and the constant little chats and barrages. How did you navigate that dynamic, though, in such a calm and cool manner?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: I think I decided pretty earlier on who I wanted to be in alliance with. I really connected with Xavier. I felt like Chris was somebody that I could have on my side. They were very much aligned with my personality traits, so it was really easy to connect with them. And when we had started that kind of alliance process, I felt very confident that we would be the ones that were standing in the end, so long as like somebody that we were kind of rooting against -- which our strategy was really to get rid of the weakest players in the beginning, because we all collectively felt that we were doing a good job for contributing to the prize pool. And ultimately, that's the first angle that we wanted to take. And I know that at the end, we'd all be fighting with each other, but at the beginning, it was all about just like making sure that we keep the players who are contributing to the prize pool, and maybe strategize towards kind of removing the more of the weaker players.
 
But you know, with the three new players coming in, that really threw everything for a loop. I thought we were doing a very good job. Xavier was up as The Anonymous. So, you know, it worked. Our strategy was working, and unfortunately, it just -- everything changed, and three new people came in. And I just kind of knew when Andy was saved, I'm like, shoot the person tonight, that is going to, like, eliminate somebody, is going to eliminate a threat and not somebody on the weaker side. And I already knew that I was a huge target after Andy was saved.
 
John Betancourt: Obviously how winning was on your mind, and that's obviously the competitor in you. So, I’ve got a two-part question for you. How tough was it to say goodbye, and what were some of the toughest aspects you faced in this competition?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: Um, it was, it was really, really quiet. And I feel like there's like… that you don't want to be too secretive, because then it looks like you're hiding something, but you don't want to say too much. And I felt like, if I could do it over again, looking back at it, I wish I said less in the chat. It's really, Jack makes a point of saying, how do you defend yourself without adding your handle? It's just like he did a good job of that. And it's like, you just want to… just like… it's like one-word matters, like, even the punctuation mattered, like, exclamation made it seem like you might be one person over another, versus a period versus like, I love to use, like, the ellipses, the dot, dot, dot. But nobody, only people in the real world know that I like to use that.
 
So, I remember thinking, well, they don't know how I write. And so, it's one of those things. And you had to tell DANI what to do and how to write. And they were very specific, you literally were like, “DANI question mark,” you know, because you had to really, like, make sure that you just didn't out yourself, even down to the just the punctuations. So, it was really, really, hard not to say too much, not to say too little. I just felt like I didn't want to be around those that I didn't think I had time to connect with right away, because I felt like the ones that were in alliance with me had my back. And one of the most comforting things, I think, even watching back on who eliminates me, is knowing that it wasn't somebody in my alliance. I--I'm not surprised Victoria did it. I can see why I would be the biggest threat. And it was probably a good angle on her end, because I probably would have won it.
 
John Betancourt: What did you take away from this experience?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: I'm a competitor by heart. And so that was, like, one of the really hard things is that I don't want to come off looking as too much of a competitor, because that was not my job. So, it was really, really, hard not to, like, want to really fight for it to look like I wasn't, like, a team player, but I am generally a team player, poker players, it's very much so like, a zero-sum kind of, kind of profession where it's like, you're the one man show you're like, you know, it's either you or nobody. There's no team proponent, but we try to make it a team component by having like, pieces of ourselves in tournaments and trying to kind of make it like that. But I've always been a team player. I've been like, raised in sports and everything, but this was “12 Perfect Strangers” in this house, and I knew that friendships would be made. I knew that was going to happen. I just have, like, a -- I know who I connect with immediately, and I'm very good with kind of, like first impression, type of things and intuition you have to be as a poker player.
 
And I already knew who I was going to connect with, but I also knew that ultimately there were going to have to be somebody that I might have to eliminate near the end. So, for me, the whole time, I'm thinking, it's just a game, and someone's gotta go. And that was a line that they used, obviously, in the advertisement, because we're still in a game, someone's gotta go. I can't be personally offended by how this game plays out. All I can possibly do is try not to be the biggest threat and try not to be the weakest one. But unfortunately, I wasn't able to kind of stay in the in the middle, like I think most winners are able to do, until the end, where they can really, like, hit hard. So, something I realized with other reality shows, reality game shows like this, is, like, it's always a person in the end that wasn't like, outshining everyone at the beginning that wins.
 
John Betancourt: Last question I have for you today, what did it mean to you to be part of a show that is this different in this dynamic?
 
Robbi Jade Lew: So, one of, like, the main reasons I wanted to come out to the show like this was like, I wanted an opportunity to kind of like, be in a competitive environment outside of this, like underground poker network, and just see what it's like, when I'm not competing with other poker players and I'm competing with, as you can see, contestants that are very, very different. All of us were so drastically different from each other. So, it's very cool to see that you can get along with people that are different personalities, but also band with them when you need to and see where your actual skill sets lie in this outside world, and really who out there is two faced.
 
It was just one of those cool, like, opportunities to really see what I can do when I'm not in like, the comfort and confinements of my poker industry. So, I had a very cool experience, and I would do it all over again if I absolutely could. And I think that if anyone ever gets the opportunity to kind of be in this, like reality game show in the middle of nowhere with people you absolutely do not know, disconnected from the outside world, that you should absolutely do it. It's one of those, like developmental opportunities that can only make you stronger. And for me, and I feel like I did develop personally and even professionally, just having that experience behind me.
 
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.